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Old 21-08-2014, 11:42   #121
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Re: Take the Anti-Piracy Pledge

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Congratulations... A full gun thread in less than 100 posts...
GASP!!!! GUNS!!!

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Old 21-08-2014, 12:01   #122
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Re: Take the Anti-Piracy Pledge

My Bad, apologies.

OK, so let's turn this around. Simple question:

If all the cops in your little town were to simply leave, would you still drive around in your luxury car at night?

And what pledge would you take? How about this one:

"I pledge that I am responsible for my own actions and willing to accept the consequences of those actions.

I pledge that if I am taken by bad guys that I will not scream for rescue, putting others in harms way, on my behalf.

I pledge that my country and my family should not give the bad guys any money for my freedom, since that will result is those funds being used to harm other people."

Impress me, take THAT pledge.

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Old 21-08-2014, 12:46   #123
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Re: Take the Anti-Piracy Pledge

The frustrating reality of self defence is that many basic skills have been lost and taken over by government agencies in the name of safety and social order.

Cruisers are publicly punished if they are caught carrying defensive weapons , so are known to be soft targets.

I honestly feel safer in Haifa or Tel Aviv where many carry weapons as a necessity against evil intent.

No wonder this is a hot 'go nowhere' topic since the obvious solution is to empower the weak (on all social, economic, weaponized) levels to make the only worthwhile universal pledge.

"I will leave you alone if you leave me alone!"
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Old 21-08-2014, 13:08   #124
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Re: Take the Anti-Piracy Pledge

The only "solution" to this is a universally applied system of social order. Many people are against it, many people think it spells the end of the world, but I believe it is "inevitable".

In the past, I have referred to myself as a "reluctant globalist". I don't like the idea of the entire world coming under the power of a single global organization or system of order, but I also don't like the idea that people like me and all of you cannot freely travel, freely associate, and freely work anywhere throughout the world.
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Old 21-08-2014, 14:04   #125
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Re: Take the Anti-Piracy Pledge

I think a lot of the frustrations shown here are due to the fact that legally one cannot act in your own self defence. other than avoiding certain areas and hoping for the best what else can be done.No one wants to be seen as a sitting duck or he ''just got lucky''
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Old 21-08-2014, 14:29   #126
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Re: Take the Anti-Piracy Pledge

Salti

Not sure why you think otherwise, but Article 51 in the UN charter allows for self defense in international waters. The legality of this is not in question.

Hoping not to meet a lion, when walking through lion country, and if you do, pleading with the lion not to eat you.....is not a strategy.

There are personal strategies, military strategies, political strategies and legal strategies. Hope would not be one of them.

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Old 21-08-2014, 14:33   #127
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Re: Take the Anti-Piracy Pledge

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Salti

Not sure why you think otherwise, but Article 51 in the UN charter allows for self defense in international waters. The legality of this is not in question.

Hoping not to meet a lion, when walking through lion country, and if you do, pleading with the lion not to eat you.....is not a strategy.

There are personal strategies, military strategies, political strategies and legal strategies. Hope would not be one of them.

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Are there arms lockers in the international waters where I can check in my weapons before entering sovereign waters where the weapons cannot be legally owned, then check them out again before I am attacked by pirates?
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Old 21-08-2014, 14:36   #128
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Re: Take the Anti-Piracy Pledge

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Riiight. Cos it's perfectly sensible to dispatch a SEAL team every time some rich senior blunders into where everyone's been warning them not to go.
Yes that's exactly what should happen. It will only happen once, in all likelihood.

EVERY TIME A RICH AMERICAN SENIOR IS ATTACKED IN OPEN WATERS, A SEAL TEAM SHOULD BE DISPATCHED.
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Old 21-08-2014, 15:54   #129
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Re: Take the Anti-Piracy Pledge

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Are there arms lockers in the international waters where I can check in my weapons before entering sovereign waters where the weapons cannot be legally owned, then check them out again before I am attacked by pirates?
nailed it
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Old 21-08-2014, 16:02   #130
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Re: Take the Anti-Piracy Pledge

Art - go to the top of your browser and type in g o o g l e . c o m

And do some searching. You might learn a lot, including the rules and regulations governing which ports allow vessels carrying arms, to enter and what the procedures of that port and country are.

And as I wrote earlier, you can disassemble an AR-10, get rid of the barrel and lower receiver and be out just $400. That is, in fact, what several security company teams do. If your life is not worth that much, that's OK...no argument from me.



After that, I really cannot think of everything for you. Get a boat, do some sailing. I am quite confident that you will never need this information. But, if you feel inclined:

G O O G L E . C O M


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Old 21-08-2014, 16:08   #131
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Re: Take the Anti-Piracy Pledge

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Art - go to the top of your browser and type in g o o g l e . c o m

And do some searching. You might learn a lot, including the rules and regulations governing which ports allow vessels carrying arms, to enter and what the procedures of that port and country are.

And as I wrote earlier, you can disassemble an AR-10, get rid of the barrel and lower receiver and be out just $400. That is, in fact, what several security company teams do. If your life is not worth that much, that's OK...no argument from me.


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Let me take one more "crak" at the nail.

Cruisers do not operate in international waters most of the time.

Pirates are not out scouring the open ocean looking for sailboats to attack.

Pirates are going to where the vessels are, they are bringing illegal weapons with them, and they have full intent of committing illegal acts without regard to the U.N. rules about anything.

Having half an AR-10 with me is not going to be of much help against that.

Here is what G O O G L E . C O M found or me:

http://www.historyguy.com/somali_pirate_attacks.htm

It's not of much value to me, since I knew what I was talking about before I started, but it might be of interest to you to see that pirate attacks are not focused on random boats drifting across the atlantic ocean.
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Old 21-08-2014, 16:23   #132
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Re: Take the Anti-Piracy Pledge

No problem, Art. You have convinced me that having the means to defend yourself would do you absolutely no good.

Glad you are getting your information from "the history guy." It is certainly all you need to know.

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Old 21-08-2014, 17:11   #133
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Re: Take the Anti-Piracy Pledge

Guys, don't You think all this discussion has not any real sense?

It happened we live in the world where there is almost no chance to fight a piracy.

From history we can learn that fighting piracy is difficult, but feasible task.

Pompeius cleared the Mediterranean.

Royal and US Navies cleared Caribbean.

British and French put the end to Barbary States piracy.

The problem is simple - to clear the "infested" area it is necessary to do it in the way being "politically incorrect".

As long, as the political correctness would be more important than safety of the seafarers the piracy will last.

The trade will be protected, but protection of trade is totally defensive approach.

The recreational seafaring will remain unprotected as the costs af protection are unbearable.

To get rid of the piracy is necessary to change ways of thinking in (over)civilised countries.

If somebody has or has not a guns on board, does not change anything in equation. It is just personal choice, but will not influence a whole situation to a slightest degree.

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Old 21-08-2014, 17:20   #134
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Re: Take the Anti-Piracy Pledge

John, let me point out to you that the American military, while one of the largest, is not the only one with effective training. Personally I hold the British SAS and the Israelis in high regard. Your prior post seems to indicate you question the courage of myself and my British friend. Perhaps I read that wrong, but I assure you I am not one to surrender, and neither is he (ex Brit SAS)

Back to the topic

In this situation I am talking about defending a single cruising yacht with a small crew - often only 2.
YOU may well be able to score expert with your 7.62. On land, with no-one shooting back. So can I, and many others, I agree. To do so at 500 yards with a MOVING target, from an UNSTABLE PLATFORM is very difficult to impossible, depending on the weather.
Yes, I also agree that with a better weapon you may be (very likely) more efficient than an individual pirate at whatever range conditions allow you to engage. However, your single weapon will not be a match for multiple pirates all with automatic weapons just spraying your vessel. To believe otherwise is delusional. One vessel I know of was attacked by 4 skiffs, all with 7-8 men, all with AK's and some with RPGs.... If you are unlucky enough to find yourself in this situation you must decide - fight and die, or take your chances, with the results out of your control. The yacht will not win.

A fleet response with suitably armed vessels is called a Navy. There has not been a sailing Navy for some time. It is not practical for modern cruising sailboats for the reasons already outlined.

However, as is already stated in this thread, having sufficient firepower on a single sailing vessel to effectively deter determined pirates is not likely. Having weapons on board for most cruisers is problematic.

To transit the area you must weigh up the risk against the benefits, and make your decision. I weighed up the issues and decided to go anyway...

For someone like me who has dreamed for a lifetime about circumnavigating, the open ocean SHOULD provide a right of free passage. But currently it does not. All nations should react to enforce this right, but they don't. You make your choice and shoulder the responsibility for what follows relying on yourself.

I have the distinct impression that this topic is pointless...

Anyway, that's it form me on this topic - this is supposed to be a sailing forum.
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Old 21-08-2014, 17:34   #135
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Re: Take the Anti-Piracy Pledge

Hi Matt

Not questioning your valor, only your opinion. You make it seem that your opinion is fact, but, sorry, it is not. It is an opinion.

4 skiffs with 7 guys with AK's aboard spraying full auto rounds on one boat, sure, that is a bad situation. But, you have no statistics to support your point that this is a tactic anyone will face. An n of 1 is just meaningless to me, sorry.

My point is simple, and the data is clear. No commercial vessel carrying a capable shooter with the appropriate weapon has ever been successfully attacked by pirates. Not one. Simple as that. A fact, not an opinion.

So, it is a simple leap of logic to posit that having the right weapon aboard can help you defeat a third world adversary.

Your opinion is that some third world bozo can shoot an AK more accurately and have a greater impact than anyone with any experience, shooting a .308 weapon...AR10, M1A, Rem 700, Rem 750.....is just so flat out incomprehensible that it made me question your experience. Sorry.

But, you are right, senseless to argue against someone's opinion. Thank you for your service.

Added: as for this being a sailing forum, I agree. I have sailed since I was a little kid. It has been a lifestyle to me. It is important to me. Which is why it is painful to me that we, as sailors, cannot go wherever we wish. We are barred from exploring the hidden Eden's of this world by bad guys. I do not accept that. There are solutions. Take a cue from the maritime community. Look at what they did. They organized, they lobbied, they held conventions and handed the IMO of set of new rules. They got that set of rules in place and are now allowed to operate, in some cases, in an extra-legal fashion. All the sailing community needs is just a little tiny bit of that. Learn from the experience of others.

Most of this thread has been small minded bloviating about how nothing can be done. Is that what your learned in your training?? It is NOT what I learned in mine.

This topic would indeed be pointless if no one offered any solutions. And thus far, those contributing anything positive have been few and far between.
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