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Old 21-08-2014, 00:34   #106
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Re: Take the Anti-Piracy Pledge

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Originally Posted by ArtM View Post
It's not a fantasy. If the pirates believed that there would be real repercussions - meaning swift, relentless attacks on them ending in certain death - for capturing or killing an American citizen, they would not do it.

My guess is that pirates have a pecking order in terms of "favorite" targets, and my other guess is that the most liberal, socialist countries in the world are at the top of that list.

I'll bet
that Iran, Korea, and Syria are on their "do not touch" list.
Hmmm. seems to be a trend her.
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Old 21-08-2014, 00:37   #107
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Re: Take the Anti-Piracy Pledge

Is it getting to a point now,that for ones peace of mind it would be preferable to avoid all Islamic shores? This would be a shame.
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Old 21-08-2014, 04:52   #108
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Re: Take the Anti-Piracy Pledge

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... Was it George Orwell who said, "People sleep peacefully in their beds at night only because rough men with guns stand ready to do violence on their behalf?"
Probably not.

The earliest known appearance was in a 1993 Washington Times essay by Richard Grenier:
“When the country is in danger, the military’s mission is to wreak destruction upon the enemy. It’s a harsh and bloody business, but that’s what the military’s for. As George Orwell pointed out, people sleep peacefully in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.”
The absence of quotation marks indicates that Grenier was using his own words to convey his interpretation of Orwell's opinion*. Later writers and speakers turned his phrase into a quotation and directly attached it to Orwell.

* For instance: In his 1945 "Notes on Nationalism", Orwell wrote that it was
"grossly obvious" that "Those who 'abjure' violence can do so only because others are committing violence on their behalf."

People Sleep Peacefully in Their Beds at Night Only Because Rough Men Stand Ready to Do Violence on Their Behalf | Quote Investigator
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Old 21-08-2014, 05:35   #109
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Re: Take the Anti-Piracy Pledge

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One person's action could fund an entire well armed force of thousands. What would they do? How many women raped, children left orphaned, and villages burned?
Do you seriously believe pirates operate to fund armies? The operate to "earn" an income to live on (that doesn't make piracy acceptable at all, I'm just correcting a factual error). Most of them are ex-fishermen who can't earn enough in the fished-out waters of Somalia.

A large portion of this thread is absurd.

Anyone advocating killing pirate's family members, or bombing villages is beyond sick. Those acts would be far more demented and despicable than the actions of the pirates themselves (and we all agree piracy is a terrible scourge).

There's no excuse for piracy, but there is a reason, and it's an economic one. Therefore the only realistic lasting solution is an economic one.

People in this thread have stupidly started conflating pirates with the terrorists who cut off that journalist's head. News flash: they're different people altogether. They're about 1500 miles apart. Terrorists intentionally do terrible things, for ideological reasons, pirates (usually) do considerably less terrible things, to make money. Pirates don't behead people - there's no money to be earned by cutting people's heads off.

You have about a 98% chance of surviving being kidnapped by pirates (that probably assumes you're willing to pay a ransom).
Deaths of seafarers in Somali pirate attacks soar | Reuters
I'll take that any day over an utterly pointless and futile gesture that will achieve exactly nothing: choosing death over paying a ransom. No pirate is ever going to know or care that you made some ridiculous "pledge".
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Old 21-08-2014, 05:41   #110
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Re: Take the Anti-Piracy Pledge

So remember,

Surrender immediately and have faith in the pirates sense of decency.....

Because
" you will loose"

/sarcasm

I'm sure the journalist James Foley was expecting his ransom to be paid.... to bad for him, that poor sob lost his head.

You all can surrender immediately if that what suits you... don't judge others who choose a different path.
I will choose to be shot in a gun fight, before I'm sitting in front of my captor reading a forced script before they remove my head...

If that makes me Rambo then so be it.



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Old 21-08-2014, 06:32   #111
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Re: Take the Anti-Piracy Pledge

According to the national news, State dept. refused to pay. The family of James Foley offered to pay the ransom, and the talks were cut off by the bad guys, apparently they were not looking for money in this instance. Some of the Europeans that have been taken hostage by this group have paid and got their people back. In James's case, I think he was famous in his own right so they were going to execute him to prove a point. Now there are missile strikes going against them, something they must have surely expected and planned for... One of the problems with these types of organizations is that they have no infrastructure of their own that can be attacked. They build nothing, create nothing, and only want to destroy. There will always be the disenfranchised that are going to join these types of organizations to continue to give them life. While I am in favor of a strong response to this aggression, I also wonder if there isn't a better way to deal with these problems. If force was the cure, then surely after Cain killed Abel, there would have been no more violence in the world. I have no solutions to the question only more questions.
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Old 21-08-2014, 06:52   #112
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pirate Re: Take the Anti-Piracy Pledge

Quote:
Originally Posted by captain58sailin View Post
... One of the problems with these types of organizations is that they have no infrastructure of their own that can be attacked. They build nothing, create nothing, and only want to destroy. There will always be the disenfranchised that are going to join these types of organizations to continue to give them life. ..
Several hundred years from now our issue will look back fondly on these bastards like we do now.


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Old 21-08-2014, 07:00   #113
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Re: Take the Anti-Piracy Pledge

Neptune

I agree. This is not the US and you are not American. You are screwed. You have already convinced yourself that the only option is to hope that the bad guys don't find you and kill you.

Sorry, but as an American, I find that defeatist attitude, alien, quite frankly.

Glad you have military experience. I do to. In the US military. I have also been to some two dozen countries on five continents, many of those spots were very dangerous places. I have been to the PI. Nice place, wonderful people. Food is better in Thailand.

I won't argue strategy with you, you have yours and you chose to transit an area you know to be covered by bad guys, so, good luck.

The idea of being part of a flotilla that has an ARMED escort, seems a good one, and basically makes my point. If you wish to really be safe, SOMEONE has to have a gun. Quod erat demonstrantum.

To your point about shooting, however, you are simply wrong. I have serious doubts about your UK friend as well.

To your first point, shooting from a boat is hard. What makes you think that the under nourished, illiterate bad guy on the boat chasing you, with an old beat up, Chinese made AK, can shoot better than you can? Oh...yes....your self defeating attitude. Let me introduce you to another way of thinking.

Come here and on any given weekend, I can show you hundreds of people, men and women, young and old, shooting 100-500 yards routinely. Even I, as old and infirmed as I am, can ...pop ...a soda can ...sized target at 200 yards, with an AR and a 4X scope without breaking a sweat or stopping a conversation. And yes, I have shot from a vessel, it is not that hard.

You may have missed my primer on the 7.62x54 NATO round vs the 7.62x39 of your adversary. Come here and let me introduce you to the hundreds of ordinary people, men and women, shooting this round and hitting dinner plate sized, or SMALLER, targets from 500 yards. Or the venerable 30-06 and people hitting dinner plates from 1000 yards. With service grade weapons, not even talking about highly accurate, bolt action rifles such as the Remington 700.

But, yes, it is not the US and other countries have problems with guns. True enough. For those who wish, you can think out of the box. You can take an AR-10, and before you land wherever it is you need to go, field strip it, throw the receiver and barrel over the side. The rest are simply parts. You can get another receiver and barrel for well under $400. Even a $400 Rossi 30-30 beats an AK, using the new generation of ammunition for it.

You made some point about spray and pray, the fact the AK's may be on auto. That makes me chuckle, a lot. Let them shoot and waste ammo. They go through an entire magazine in 4 sec. I like that. Here in the US, we have a saying: Fire power is fine....Accuracy is FINAL.

That is not Rambo, that is choice. You can chose to be a victim, or you can chose to fight back. It is a choice made everyday, in the US. Perhaps not elsewhere.

Good luck.

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Old 21-08-2014, 08:46   #114
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Re: Take the Anti-Piracy Pledge

If I had known I could have been potting fishermen at 500 yards with a disposable AR-10 as I cruised the Philippines, I would have spent a lot less time snorkling. I got a squirt of testoterone just thinking about it.
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Old 21-08-2014, 08:57   #115
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Re: Take the Anti-Piracy Pledge

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And again, you are contributing no ideas or helpful information.
How about you defend your ideas and viewpoints with rational argument, instead of hand-wavey pronouncements?
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Old 21-08-2014, 09:20   #116
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Re: Take the Anti-Piracy Pledge

Lake - we must not speak the same language. I gave you factual statements regarding the different capabilities of just two weapons. If you can google, you can verify that information. I will leave you to it.

The costs are also simple and valid. Use google and get educated.

The fact that armed escorts have been arranged, simply demonstrates my point. You must have missed latin, sorry for that.

Do you even have a point?

Do you have any specific, factual error you can point to, or you just want to bloviate? Have you ever been outside your bubble in Toronto?

Mike - glad I could educate you. Glad you were lucky. And, just so you know, "taking pot shots are fisherman"...is a stupid, worthless, pathetic comment to make.

The trouble I have with the camp that rolls the dice and depends on luck is that it is being dishonest. They go, saying they are OK with the odds, but when then get caught or in a bind, cry out, woe is me, someone come help me. This should not have happened to me.

And then your families pay your ransom, if you are lucky and that money goes to kill some less fortunate soul. I just cannot respect you. You are enabling the problem. But, only for the next guy. That is narcissistic and ego-centric. So, yes, I have a problem with that. Prove that it is not.

Or you come on here say, naw, not going to happen, didn't happen to ME.

Glad you were lucky. Check Youtube for a video of the guy who wasn't. What would you be thinking if that was you or someone you knew? Or they were sawing off the head of your wife and little girl. Yeah...your bravado would be short lived.

Thanks
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Old 21-08-2014, 09:24   #117
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Re: Take the Anti-Piracy Pledge

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Originally Posted by pbmaise View Post
"It may be that Daniel Pearl was a precedent, in that the aura of protection was broken," Daniel's father, Judea Pearl, said in a*2012 interview with The Post* "It was understood even to extreme elements that you donít touch a journalist, that you will pay, but that myth has been broken. "
When wars were the political instruments of different factions of the same society (eg WW I and earlier, and WW II to some extent), fought by uniformed professional armies, yes there were more observed conventions around journalists and non-combatants.

Today's conflicts are more often ideological and asymmetric, and the media are often regarded as tools of one side or another, which robs them of their impartial status.

This attitude is pervasive. Even here in the west many assert that there's some vast media conspiracy, or that the media always lean one way. It's not unheard of for journalists covering protests in the US or Canada to be arrested or swept up in 'kettling' actions that keep innocent people locked up for hours, then released without explanation, with their cameras and phones mysteriously missing or wiped.

So, the 'sanctity' of journalists in a conflict is a historical artifact now.
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Old 21-08-2014, 09:35   #118
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Re: Take the Anti-Piracy Pledge

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Lake - we must not speak the same language. I gave you factual statements regarding the different capabilities of just two weapons. If you can google, you can verify that information. I will leave you to it.

The costs are also simple and valid. Use google and get educated.

The fact that armed escorts have been arranged, simply demonstrates my point. You must have missed latin, sorry for that.

Do you even have a point?

Do you have any specific, factual error you can point to, or you just want to bloviate? Have you ever been outside your bubble in Toronto?
That's adorable.

You respond to (or simply ignore) some of my points with:
Quote:
And again, you are contributing no ideas or helpful information.
It is pretty clear, the only way to end piracy, is to end the pirates.
... but can't be bothered to respond to my points, or to make any practical, workable suggestion about really 'ending' the pirates.

yet I'm the one bloviating without a point?

Anyway, I have zero doubt that you know of what you speak regarding weapons and relative accuracy, and I expect that your experience and training do make it more likely that you would prevail in a piracy situation... though it's still a riskier proposition than careful avoidance. I don't think yours is a solution that will work for all or most cruisers.
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Old 21-08-2014, 10:03   #119
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Re: Take the Anti-Piracy Pledge

Lake - forgive me if I missed your points. If you want to sum, point by point, I will address. Honestly, you wrote, "How about you defend your ideas and viewpoints with rational argument, instead of hand-wavey pronouncements?"

I wrote in simple, plain English and gave specific details. So, I am not sure what you are talking about.

My points are simple:
a. If you go, take responsibility for yourself.
b. Don't be a victim, be prepared to defend yourself.
c. The best way to protect yourself is to understand the weapons and tactics of your adversary. Counter those with superior weapons and tactics.

The is no possible argument that a .308 beats an AK. Why do you think there is a 500 yard exclusion zone around cruise ships and warships??? It is because at that distance the bad guys cannot possibly hurt you....and you can KILL them. Simple...be informed.

I made the point, two pages ago, I WOULD NOT GO. To me, THAT is the very best option. Why on earth anyone would knowingly go in harms way, is just beyond me. If I were to transit those waters, there is no possible way I would do so unarmed. That would be like walking through African lion country, thinking that the odds are that you won't see a lion. I just do not think that way.

To go saying that you are perfectly OK with the odds...is simply NOT being honest. You are only OK with the odds, as long as nothing happens to you.

Be honest.

And Lake, to be sure, when I have gone in harms way, I was with people who were well trained and ...well armed. Why on earth would you do otherwise? But this is NOT saying that you are going to walk through a place shooting everyone. That is pathetic and completely false. It is simple....don't mess with me, I won't mess with you.....that is a proven strategy.

I will give you a personal perspective. I have lost very close friends. Good people who lost their lives well before their time. I have cheated death more than once. My life is very precious to me. I do not take these things lightly. Those who do, IMHO are those who really have no idea how precious and short, life can be.

My best to you and your family,

John
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Old 21-08-2014, 11:35   #120
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Re: Take the Anti-Piracy Pledge

Congratulations... A full gun thread in less than 100 posts...
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