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Old 19-08-2014, 07:34   #46
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Re: Take the Anti-Piracy Pledge

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Originally Posted by MarkJ View Post
Or you start getting the fingers and ears of your crew member. Or would your ethics just allow him to be cut up?

Mark
So, by resisting capture and fighting is the same as letting my crew get cut up?

Of coarse you would do everything to get someone back....money is never worth more than a life.

I was simply saying that it falls on the crew first and for most to avoid being in that situation. We can't all rely on our respective governments to bend over backwards to rescue us, and we shouldn't be suprised when the cavelry isn't sent in after us. It's a dangerous world out there and personal responsibility should be the first thing in all our minds.

Government will not always save everyone from everything
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Old 19-08-2014, 08:05   #47
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Re: Take the Anti-Piracy Pledge

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Originally Posted by natraps116 View Post
I have a theoretical question for you.

You are sleeping on your boat at night and you hear someone on deck stealing your equipment, you,

A: get up and investigate who's on your boat

B: lock your cabin door and grab the radio and call for help

C:stay quit and let them take what they want and hope they don't come in your cabin

D: grab your legally owned firearm, announce your presence of your being armed and warn them to leave immediately

What would you do? I'm just curious.

(There is no right or wrong answer)

d, is not an option while I hold several firearms at home and at my club including pistols and a semi, I never carry firearms aboard. ( even though licensing them is easy enough )

c, maybe , depends on how many etc

B. Again if I felt I could be overpowers yes , I would also turn on all exterior lights

a. Must likely action.

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Old 19-08-2014, 08:07   #48
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Re: Take the Anti-Piracy Pledge

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Or, pbmaise, you start getting the fingers and ears of your crew member. Or would your ethics just allow him to be cut up?

Mark

Isn't " ethics " what ISIS is all about. Great thing ethics , can mean anything

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Old 19-08-2014, 08:12   #49
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Re: Take the Anti-Piracy Pledge

Hmm, no thanks.

I pledge to hope as hard as I can that my family will be able to save my life, or that I can save my own.

I certainly don't want to give my life away in exchange for a handful of people to do a bit of ineffectual lobbying against people who who won't care anyway.
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Old 19-08-2014, 08:17   #50
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Re: Take the Anti-Piracy Pledge

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So, by resisting capture and fighting is the same as letting my crew get cut up?

Of coarse you would do everything to get someone back....money is never worth more than a life.

I was simply saying that it falls on the crew first and for most to avoid being in that situation. We can't all rely on our respective governments to bend over backwards to rescue us, and we shouldn't be suprised when the cavelry isn't sent in after us. It's a dangerous world out there and personal responsibility should be the first thing in all our minds.

Government will not always save everyone from everything

I think we can leave the " don't put yourself in harms way " to one side , everyone agreed its " rule 0 "

Whether one offers resistance or not is highly situation dependant, and can only be assessed on a case by case basis. Equally one must be assured that the outcome of resistance is superior to no resistance

However I don't believe its up to average average joe to wage a personal battle against piracy. Its up to average joe to survive, that's all. Today the security apparatus of the state is infinitely better equipped to ultimately deal with these types of thing , whether they do is a political decision of course.

I am not all in favour of " have a go " heros. They just end up dead

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Old 19-08-2014, 09:04   #51
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Re: Take the Anti-Piracy Pledge

I can see how difficult it is to get this concept understood.

Let me try again. In this area $1,000 USD is about a year's income for a large percent of the population.

Pick a number any number. Say a small one like $50mm.

What long term harm would come to this troubled area.

How many innocent people would come to grief simply because one person was willing to give in.

$50mm buys hundreds of boats, thousands of guns, and tens of thousand of man years.

One person's action could fund an entire well armed force of thousands. What would they do? How many women raped, children left orphaned, and villages burned?

I, nor my family, would never due that.

How anyone can do this is______. Which party is more immoral?

So if someone like myself was kidnapped, the group has only two options.

A. Kill me and then watch how a few million per year for 37 years helps ensure no one comes near... Or

B. Release me and my crew unharmed.

At some point a few may catch on to this concept. For now all this thread really shows is

99.9% of potential kidnapped sailors are soft targets that appear willing to be used as pawns or as an ATM.

Then there is this other guy. The one with the biggest boat. He promises no money. We can see he travels with a Filipino crew. On what basis where they picked?







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Old 19-08-2014, 09:37   #52
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Re: Take the Anti-Piracy Pledge

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Then there is this other guy. The one with the biggest boat. He promises no money. We can see he travels with a Filipino crew. On what basis where they picked?
Little white guy, Nike attire, nice looking sunglasses... big boat.

I think you give the uneducated angry masses far too much credit, man. Look at the situation in Africa. Looters broke into an ebola isolation station and stole the mattresses. Not smart, but it was something they wanted so they took it.

If criminals inclined to go after someone, they'll go after someone who pops up on their radar and looks like they have money. If you make things difficult, they'll kill you and go on to the next person because a quiet body is easier to deal with than a noisy hostage who isn't paying out. It's that simple.
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Old 19-08-2014, 09:50   #53
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Re: Take the Anti-Piracy Pledge

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Originally Posted by pbmaise View Post
I can see how difficult it is to get this concept understood.

Let me try again. In this area $1,000 USD is about a year's income for a large percent of the population.

Pick a number any number. Say a small one like $50mm.

What long term harm would come to this troubled area.

How many innocent people would come to grief simply because one person was willing to give in.

$50mm buys hundreds of boats, thousands of guns, and tens of thousand of man years.

One person's action could fund an entire well armed force of thousands. What would they do? How many women raped, children left orphaned, and villages burned?

I, nor my family, would never due that.

How anyone can do this is______. Which party is more immoral?

So if someone like myself was kidnapped, the group has only two options.

A. Kill me and then watch how a few million per year for 37 years helps ensure no one comes near... Or

B. Release me and my crew unharmed.

At some point a few may catch on to this concept. For now all this thread really shows is

99.9% of potential kidnapped sailors are soft targets that appear willing to be used as pawns or as an ATM.

Then there is this other guy. The one with the biggest boat. He promises no money. We can see he travels with a Filipino crew. On what basis where they picked?







G

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I know you mean well. But you are looking at the issue in isolation.

Firstly , let's say your family are really convinced and don't pay the ransom. All that happens is they shoot you and kidnap the next victim, they then torture that victim ( or say his wife or kids ) until someone pays.

Net result = money.

Secondly. Nobody appointed you to be the defender against say kidnappers. That's a job for the professionals. Your job is to ensure you or those with you survive, that's all.

Paradoxically in many of these conflicts it might be better to " arm up " these people, then they seriously challenge for power and we can get on with the job of nuking them. !!!


You are approaching this from the complete wrong angle.


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Old 19-08-2014, 10:22   #54
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Re: Take the Anti-Piracy Pledge

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Originally Posted by natraps116 View Post
So, by resisting capture and fighting is the same as letting my crew get cut up?

Of coarse you would do everything to get someone back....money is never worth more than a life.

I was simply saying that it falls on the crew first and for most to avoid being in that situation. We can't all rely on our respective governments to bend over backwards to rescue us, and we shouldn't be suprised when the cavelry isn't sent in after us. It's a dangerous world out there and personal responsibility should be the first thing in all our minds.

Government will not always save everyone from everything
Seems the Rambo types usually can't spell.
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Old 19-08-2014, 10:27   #55
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Re: Take the Anti-Piracy Pledge

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Originally Posted by Stu Jackson View Post
Seems the Rambo types usually can't spell.
I accept that...

And apparently I'm a Rambo type?

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Old 19-08-2014, 10:37   #56
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Re: Take the Anti-Piracy Pledge

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Originally Posted by Ex-Calif View Post
Here's my pledge.

"I am a citizen of the most powerful nation on earth. Over my lifetime I have probably paid over $2m in US federal taxes.

I deserve at least one tomahawk missile expended on my behalf. Please direct it as close as possible to the location of the house of the warlord who has authorized the piracy that caused me to be kidnapped.

Then negotiate my release with anyone who may be left alive."

Fight terror with absolute terror...
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Old 19-08-2014, 10:53   #57
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Re: Take the Anti-Piracy Pledge

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Aha!
I knew it, smoked you from the first but could not put my finger on that scent! WE (in Philadelphia) are a land of HOAGIES ( named after the faithful ship builders that bought their lunches to HOG Island). We have no HEROES here, get thee back to Queens, Staten Island or the nether regions of the inner boroughs.
No gunfire please, we are all kind of Quaker when it comes to getting shot at. Perhaps one day we can have some steaks at Tony Luke's ?( best chicken cheesesteak around, although that may start another revolutionary war).
I agree with you. This discussion is not relevant to you or your use of your boat. There are however a lot of people using their boats in other ways.
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Old 19-08-2014, 11:21   #58
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Re: Take the Anti-Piracy Pledge

Pbmaise I do not believe you will turn away customers because they will not pledge to give away the rights of which they have no control over. I call Shenanigans!
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Old 19-08-2014, 11:32   #59
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Re: Take the Anti-Piracy Pledge

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Originally Posted by pbmaise View Post

To some of you, piracy and kidnapping is obviously a joke.

Now run along over to the joke forum if you are looking to poke fun. Some here, are cruising sailors who know this is serious.
I'm sure no one here thinks piracy is a joke. However, your attitude and approach certainly seems to be creating one. Why in hell would anyonein there right mind actually want to be even near an area of attack. The oceans comprise over 139 million square miles which is a really large cruising ground. Personally if you were taken, you deserved to be.
All your drama about pledges, signatures and what not amount to a bunch of hub-bub.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pbmaise View Post

Last night I spoke with a police officer who confirmed three things:

1. To date it appears no demand for money has been made. None is expected.

2. He agreed the powers of any authorities is secondary to those of business owners. They are the ones that storm his office and demand specific interventions.



Again, if you wish to post pithy, creative replies, go to the joke forum. This is no joke.

Again, this is a fantastic place to visit. Just follow a few minimal recommendations and you will be safer here than any sailing trip in US, Mexico, and most of the Carib.

No piracy occurs in those places, instead it is something worse. You just don't read about it since it happens so often it isn't news.
More Hub-bub. A police officer confirmed that business is a #1 force?...please! Ya...I'm sure when they storm his office he has no choice that to do as they direct him... And again, people take piracy seriously. I think it might be you that is not taken that way.

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I am posting this with as much tact as possible. I lived in the Philippines for 6 years, was married to a Filipina for 23 years and have lived in SEA for 30 years. I was in Manila during Marcos' fall - tanks, guns, airport strafing the whole banana.

I think you are playing a dangerous game and you are being somewhat naive.

Warlords and power mongers have been in the Philippines long before you got there and will be there long after you are gone.

Talking to local police and making noise about this is exactly what you don't want to be doing. You already stated that as the largest boat in the area you have a high profile.

Now you are rallying "global" support to fight automatic weapon-armed terrorists economically? By boycotting local businesses?

Seriously. This can get you killed. Not just piracy. I watched one dude shoot another dude in a bar in Manila over a parking space. There are lots of guns in the Philippines.

One time we were driving in the southern part of Luzon - I was the only westerner. We came to a log roadblock with about 6 guys armed with M-16s. They asked if I wanted to contribute to the Barrio Fiesta. I sad, "Sure. How much do I want to contribute?" We settled at 20,000 pesos. We passed the roadblock, entered the town and had lunch.

The point is - Don't get involved in local politics, local beefs and local crime. Don't talk religion and don't be a pompous westerner.

An above all else - Don't cruise areas that are known to be dangerous for Pete's sake. There are awesome palm trees, beaches and coconuts all over Asia. You don't need to go to freakin' Mindanao.
Exactly my point. Why play into drama in dramatic places.
Only one time I found myself in a stupid situation. The last Coup in Thailand. got up one morning to tanks and soldiers in the streets. There was little warning that it was going to happen. I've been to that country 10 times without mishap. There is much unrest there now, so I have no plans to go back until things settle down politically. Why risk it.

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Originally Posted by pbmaise View Post

If you would like to borrow a crew member of mine while in the Philippines that are great at hauling stuff to and from shore. Although in the photo, I am the one seated, and I hauled that weight back to the boat. Rhonnie stayed aboard keeping an eye out.



The picture speaks volumes.
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Old 19-08-2014, 13:40   #60
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Re: Take the Anti-Piracy Pledge

Quote:
Originally Posted by pbmaise View Post

I, nor my family, would never due that.

How anyone can do this is______. Which party is more immoral?

So if someone like myself was kidnapped, the group has only two options.

A. Kill me and then watch how a few million per year for 37 years helps ensure no one comes near... Or

B. Release me and my crew unharmed.

At some point a few may catch on to this concept. For now all this thread really shows is

99.9% of potential kidnapped sailors are soft targets that appear willing to be used as pawns or as an ATM.

Then there is this other guy. The one with the biggest boat. He promises no money. We can see he travels with a Filipino crew. On what basis where they picked?
You are making some assumptions that appear to be in error.

1 - Southwestern Mindanao has been dangerous for over 30 years. Everyone knows or should know that. You should know that and you should not be there. The German couple should not have been there.

2 - If you think the issue in Southwestern Mindanao is simply kidnapping for cash you are partly wrong. The group is religious. The money is to fund religious jihad and to simply stir up trouble. Factions in Mindanao have been off and on trying to separate from the Philippines for years. There are more people involved than a few guys in the jungle with guns. You are in the middle of a religious separatist movement.

3 - If you think you will have any control over what happens "after" you are kidnapped you are sadly mistaken. It is shown time and time again that people and governments pay. If there is reasonable assurance that the victim will be released. It's the way it's done.

I presume you crew is Christian? If so you are probably putting him and maybe his family at risk.

You don't have to take my word for this there is plenty of research available on Mindanao. Here is a link to get you started.

Abu Sayyaf | Mapping Militant Organizations

PS - I am still baffled by the 37 years and 2 million a year in economic loss? I have no idea how this adds up or comes together in what you are trying to do.

BTW - I read your Sailing Safely post. So there is an exclusions zone from which authorities will escort you out if you try to go in. That seems smarter than starting your own jihad against these guys, doesn't it? Keep the "soft" targets away?
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