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Old 21-08-2014, 17:48   #136
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Re: Take the Anti-Piracy Pledge

No John, you did not read my post as intended. From a commercial ship is a completely different situation. The platform is way more stable, there is Government's co-operation to allow weapons to be loaded aboard along with security personnel, the vessel is fast (compared to a yacht), has normally high sides (hard to climb), and firing points elevated well above the pirate skiff/s. The skiffs also have to deal with a large wake..

Most ships I saw in the area carried at least 4-5 security people, and modern military LMG's. I watched them go in and out to ships every day, from Galle in Sri Lanka, and spoke to several, had a beer with a few. Most ex military...

Again - one on one, sure I'd absolutely expect to be ok with that. But that was not my experience. Even the vessel that pursued us had about 15 men, and 1:15 is not a good option.
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Old 21-08-2014, 17:50   #137
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Re: Take the Anti-Piracy Pledge

The example that started this post was not an open ocean scenario but an Anchorage where the cruisers were taken

We have a long history of events in almost every country where cruisers are attacked at anchor in remote places.

This is where the primary risk resides and where as cruisers we are not allowed to effectively defend ourselves because of anti-gun laws.

Running Super yachts with high value targets entailed a lot of security issues.... Prior to 9/11 we were LEGALLY equipped and trained to deal with it.

After 9/11 the laws became paranoid with the effect of making cruisers soft targets no matter where they cruise.
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Old 21-08-2014, 17:58   #138
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Re: Take the Anti-Piracy Pledge

I love these arguments where opinions that do not match your own are not facts, but the opinions that do match are facts. The tedious backwards and forwards debates that seem to result from nobody being prepared to NOT have the last say are just that, tedious.

Coops.
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Old 21-08-2014, 17:59   #139
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Re: Take the Anti-Piracy Pledge

Totally agree with that Pelagic!

And currently it is the most likely scenario. When in dodgy areas, we had bars over the fwd hatch, steel mesh doors in the the companionway (too hot to close the door off), and other basic precautions.

Most incidents I know of (Asia) in that situation did not have firearms involved by the boarders - machetes are common. But the incidences are still pretty unusual, when the number of boats out there are considered. People get robbed in their houses in every town and city in the world - why should a boat be any different?
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Old 21-08-2014, 18:00   #140
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Re: Take the Anti-Piracy Pledge

Hi Matt

I am not sure you read what I wrote.

We are looking for solutions.

Here is what we know: No commercial ship with a guy with a gun on it has ever been taken by pirates. No matter how many or how many vessels that attacked in. Not one. Data. Fact.

Your argument against using a weapon in a small boat argues against itself. If you cannot shoot the bad guy, what makes you think the bad guy can shoot you? Just because he has full auto? Sorry...that is simply incorrect.

One proposal is do nothing, pray and hope it does not happen to you. That is not a strategy.

Given what we know, if you can shoot, and can carry an appropriate weapon, MY opinion is that you can defeat a boat load of bad guys. I base that opinion on the fact that ....It has been done. And more than that, it makes sense. You may disagree, but your opinion of this is simply incorrect.

One guy with a shotgun, defeated TWO boats of bad guys, on his sailing trip up the Red Sea. That is a fact. And that was close in, with a shotgun, against their AK's.

So, you can argue against this all day long. It is your opinion, you are welcome to it.

So, I have my proposal. Come up with one that has a better chance of a successful outcome or just concede, you have none.
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Old 21-08-2014, 18:43   #141
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Re: Take the Anti-Piracy Pledge

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coops View Post
I love these arguments where opinions that do not match your own are not facts, but the opinions that do match are facts. The tedious backwards and forwards debates that seem to result from nobody being prepared to NOT have the last say are just that, tedious.

Coops.
+1

Both sides have myopia. Neither person is anywhere near the Philippines nor Mindanao - This thread started as a topic about that if anyone remembers.

It is not about Piracy off Somalia, it is not about middle east beheadings, it is not about the Straits of Malacca. It is about the situation in Southwwest Mindanao.

My point is the flavors are different.

Also - each person made their arguments. You're done. Shut up about it already. You aren't going to convince the other guy and just repeating what you've already said is pointless and boring.

I have a map of Asia above my desk. It is approximately 36" X 36" and covers Lat 0 through about 15S and Long 0 to about 100E

The area we are talking about in Mindanao takes up about 1 1/2 X 1 1/2 inches.

There are a crap load better places to go.

If Pmaise wants to go fix the situation there good luck to him. He's heard our opinions and may or may not agree. Doesn't matter. He'll do what he wants as will everyone else.
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Old 21-08-2014, 18:59   #142
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Re: Take the Anti-Piracy Pledge

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ex-Calif View Post
+1

Both sides have myopia. Neither person is anywhere near the Philippines nor Mindanao - This thread started as a topic about that if anyone remembers.

It is not about Piracy off Somalia, it is not about middle east beheadings, it is not about the Straits of Malacca. It is about the situation in Southwwest Mindanao.

My point is the flavors are different.

Also - each person made their arguments. You're done. Shut up about it already. You aren't going to convince the other guy and just repeating what you've already said is pointless and boring.

I have a map of Asia above my desk. It is approximately 36" X 36" and covers Lat 0 through about 15S and Long 0 to about 100E

The area we are talking about in Mindanao takes up about 1 1/2 X 1 1/2 inches.

There are a crap load better places to go.

If Pmaise wants to go fix the situation there good luck to him. He's heard our opinions and may or may not agree. Doesn't matter. He'll do what he wants as will everyone else.
+1
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Old 21-08-2014, 19:14   #143
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Re: Take the Anti-Piracy Pledge

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ex-Calif View Post
... I have a map of Asia above my desk. It is approximately 36" X 36" and covers Lat 0 through about 15S and Long 0 to about 100E

The area we are talking about in Mindanao takes up about 1 1/2 X 1 1/2 inches.

There are a crap load better places to go. ...
The names change now and then but the entire area of the South China Sea has always had problems with pirates. FOR CENTURIES. All this angst over what to do: DO NOT GO THERE WITH LOVED ONES.
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Old 21-08-2014, 19:14   #144
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Re: Take the Anti-Piracy Pledge

[QUOTE=John Drake;1611142
.....Take a cue from the maritime community. Look at what they did. They organized, they lobbied, they held conventions and handed the IMO of set of new rules. They got that set of rules in place and are now allowed to operate, in some cases, in an extra-legal fashion. All the sailing community needs is just a little tiny bit of that. Learn from the experience of others.
[/QUOTE]

John, I admire your passion and in my case you are preaching to a proactive supporter.

However it was the economics of the global shipping industry that allowed the nations to agree on a shepherding or guns for hire solution where the costs are passed on to the consumer.

I don't call that a success but a compromised solution where they still don't allow the ship/yacht owner and thier crew to defend themselves anywhere - anyplace.

Like you.... I have advocated normal law abiding communities under threat to support and train at local gun clubs.

It is usually met by a fear based conviction that arming the masses IS the problem and it puts our community at a higher risk..... Nanny States and socially passive groups reinforce that paranoid danger.

Again, if you have ever walked the streets of Israel where the community is armed and security trained... you are alert but not fearful of punks with guns out to rob you.

They just don't try.

Terrorist organizations are another matter and that is where we depend on governments to step up and deal with it.
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Old 22-08-2014, 06:58   #145
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Re: Take the Anti-Piracy Pledge

Can someone just tell me what the "37 years" thing means? I don't want to wade through all these pages of posts.

This one bugs me. Would 36yrs not be enough and 38yrs be unreasonable?

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Old 22-08-2014, 07:10   #146
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Re: Take the Anti-Piracy Pledge

Quote:
Originally Posted by colemj View Post
Can someone just tell me what the "37 years" thing means? I don't want to wade through all these pages of posts.
This one bugs me. Would 36yrs not be enough and 38yrs be unreasonable?
Mark
I don't know; but Elvis Presley died 37 years ago, at age 42, on Aug. 16, 1977.
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Old 22-08-2014, 07:15   #147
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Re: Take the Anti-Piracy Pledge

Pelagic - agree 100%

It is just sad to see a community as large and international as ours, roll over for the bad guys.

As Shakespeare wrote in King Lear, "Nothing will come of nothing"

So, the bad guys will deny sailors more area, take more sailors hostage, kill more sailors and make more money from the rest, so that they can hurt more people and take more area.

Glad I got out there when I did.

Sad for our community.

Thanks
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Old 22-08-2014, 07:32   #148
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Re: Take the Anti-Piracy Pledge

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelagic

Like you.... I have advocated normal law abiding communities under threat to support and train at local gun clubs.

It is usually met by a fear based conviction that arming the masses IS the problem and it puts our community at a higher risk..... Nanny States and socially passive groups reinforce that paranoid danger.

Again, if you have ever walked the streets of Israel where the community is armed and security trained... you are alert but not fearful of punks with guns out to rob you.
A quick gun sidebar from someone you'd probably consider a nanny-stater: if the pro-gun position included that every gun owner had mandatory training and/or military service experience, and all weapons were registered - think Switzerland or Israel.... I'd be pro-gun.

Carry on.
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Old 22-08-2014, 07:54   #149
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Re: Take the Anti-Piracy Pledge

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lake-Effect View Post
A quick gun sidebar from someone you'd probably consider a nanny-stater: if the pro-gun position included that every gun owner had mandatory training and/or military service experience, and all weapons were registered - think Switzerland or Israel.... I'd be pro-gun.
Carry on.
+1

But... no even remote chance for this in most of the world...
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Old 22-08-2014, 07:54   #150
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Re: Take the Anti-Piracy Pledge

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lake-Effect View Post
A quick gun sidebar from someone you'd probably consider a nanny-stater: if the pro-gun position included that every gun owner had mandatory training and/or military service experience, and all weapons were registered - think Switzerland or Israel.... I'd be pro-gun.

Carry on.
I'd be all for mandatory training and all that too... as long as it was free. The problem is is all the red tape you just mentioned makes it harder for the average person with limited income to obtain a firearm. And registering all weapons? Well we all know what happens when registration of weapons is passed.

Confiscation

Happened Australia , happening in Connecticut ect ect

I'm all for a more peacfull society,

And if we could turn back time I would say NOONE have firearms.

The problem is any new laws passed only affect who, law abiding citizens. There are two many guns already in circulation to take them away from the people.

Criminals don't follow laws to begin with so disarming the public will only embolden them.

It's a shame really, but the world we live in the bad guys have lots of guns.
And if you want disarm yourself that's your choice.

You don't get to make that choice for others. In USA we have the second ammendment. It Shall not be infringed.

If Americans had a constitutional convention and wanted to change it that way.. well that's the only legal way of doing it. Any laws infringing on gun owners is unconstitutional, period.

It the way our country was founded... like or not. America has got something right... we wouldn't be a super power if we didn't. .

End of gun rant

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