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Old 04-07-2015, 13:30   #16
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Re: Submersible Trash Pump for Emergency Use

Check out this pump. Attaches to the prop shaft (split impeller and housing), no parts rub against each other so can be run dry perpetually. In fact, it runs the minute you put the engine in gear. Acts as an engine room ventilator when there is no water present. Pump rates are very high.

http://www.fastflowpump.com/Design.html

Anyway, that's what the brochure says. While I don't doubt the figures, I would be leery of installing such a pump as it requires the engine to be IN GEAR! I thought of having a 2 piece prop shaft with a moveable coupler or, in the alternative, mounting a PTO on the front of the engine. Can't see driving my boat increasing the flow thru a likely hole forward.

The plus, tho, is a high capacity pump always at the ready once the engine is on.
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Old 04-07-2015, 13:46   #17
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Re: Submersible Trash Pump for Emergency Use

Just as important as a dewatering pump is having (redundant) high water alarms. We also have alarms if a pump even goes on - why should it on a modern fiberglass boat? You want to know & know early of any leak.

Old stories of flying bridge boats going under as the captain looks back/down wondering why his speed is dropping only to see the cockpit nearly awash - kinda late by then.

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Old 04-07-2015, 14:16   #18
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Re: Submersible Trash Pump for Emergency Use

Quote:
Originally Posted by ardenlester00 View Post
Where do "holes" usually happen in a fiberglass sailboat?
Here is the top 10 from an insurance company:

Keeping Your Boat Afloat - Seaworthy Magazine - BoatUS
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Old 04-07-2015, 19:03   #19
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Re: Submersible Trash Pump for Emergency Use

Quote:
Originally Posted by transmitterdan View Post
That happens sometimes even today but those pumps are big and pump more than 100GPM. These pumps are normally run by direct drive diesel or gasoline engines. There is almost no practical way a small cruising yacht could carry one around.
150 GPM

CG-P1B-GX120

We used to drop them out of the back of a C-130 or side door of a HU-16.
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Old 04-07-2015, 20:19   #20
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Re: Submersible Trash Pump for Emergency Use

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Originally Posted by hpeer View Post
150 GPM

CG-P1B-GX120

We used to drop them out of the back of a C-130 or side door of a HU-16.
Right. Small package, light and will do the job.
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Old 04-07-2015, 22:53   #21
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Re: Submersible Trash Pump for Emergency Use

The following is a quote from the report that Transmitterdan posted the link to.

"That's not to say that adequately sized, functioning bilge pumps are not important. In addition to removing nuisance water, they can keep your boat afloat long enough for you to find a leak and fix it."

That's exactly why I like big pumps. They buy you time. The more pumping capacity you have, the longer it's going to take for the boat to sink. The longer it takes for the boat to sink, the more likely you will be able to save it.

I've been on a sinking boat. Once the Coast Guard arrived with the big pump, we were able to get ahead of the incoming water and save the boat.
I like BIG pumps.
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Old 05-07-2015, 07:12   #22
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Re: Submersible Trash Pump for Emergency Use

Can you tell us why the leak that could not be stemmed? What type of bilge pumps did the boat have?

I never said big pumps are bad. My point was it is impractical to carry a big enough pump to save the boat. The 150GPM pump posted above is huge and requires a 4HP motor and gallons of gasoline (petrol) to run it. Few cruising yachts can find space to safely carry such a thing. Plus it will not save a boat with a 3 inch hole 24 inches below the waterline. My opinion is that a well equipped easily found damage control kit is more valuable than a big trash pump that has to be fetched, put together and started.

So to clarify a bit in order of priority for me:

0) EPIRB.
1) Minimum 2 big 12V bilge pumps permanently rigged with one above the other. Manual 30GPM pump.
2) Damage control kit with at least soft wood plugs, soft rubber plugs, rubber hammer, small ax, battery powered screw driver, self tapping screws, bits of wood various sizes, epoxy putty sticks, head mounted light, rags or towels, anything else you can think of that will help in your boat. Also, some longer timbers and larger plywood sections stored in a place easy to reach.
3) Really loud bilge alarm with disable switch.

Also, I am not a fan of boats with super thin hulls and structural liners. This increases the chance a leak can be hidden and/or inaccessible from inside the boat. But in the past that debate has taken inappropriate turns.
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Old 05-07-2015, 18:02   #23
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Re: Submersible Trash Pump for Emergency Use

Transmitterdan I think you and I agree more than we disagree. It's pretty easy to get carried away but I like that the OP is giving some thought to the problem.

My sinking experience was on a forty foot sport fish boat that did not belong to me. We had hooked a big fish and backed down on it. A lot of water came over the transom and through the freeing ports. Unknown to us, a lot of it was getting below. Eventually the owner noticed that the freeing ports were staying below the water. At that point we were sinking. The engine room had two feet or more water in it. There were two 1500 GPH automatic pumps. One had come on automatically. I don't think we ever got the second going. We stuffed towels into the freeing ports and slowed the water to the point that the pump and a couple of guys with buckets, could stay up with what was coming in. We couldn't seem to get the water level to go down.
The Coasties arrived in about an hour, put a 3" gasoline engine pump aboard, and had the water going down within minutes of their arrival. Those guys are good!

If it had been my boat there would have been more and bigger pumps. I would also have set it up to use the engine cooling pumps in an emergency. On his boat it would have been easy to do and that would have added two Jabsco 2" pumps to the fight.

On my own little boat I have two 750 GPH pumps and a 3000 GPH pump mounted higher. All are automatic. I can also use my engine cooling pump. It might be good for an additional 1000 GPH. I don't have a bilge alarm, but I will be installing one soon. If we had an alarm on the fishing boat, we probably would have avoided the whole problem. If we could have used the engine pumps, I think we wouldn't have needed rescue.
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Old 05-07-2015, 19:01   #24
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Re: Submersible Trash Pump for Emergency Use

My yacht club has a P-6 pump, gasoline powered (Murphy's Law says that electric power will probably be unavailable when the sh*t its the fan). It has saved several boats at our club. Assuming we haven't lost electricity, we also have a couple of additional electrical pumps, one submersible ad one for dinghys that have taken on too much water. Here's an example of the power of the P-6 that several of the more enlightened (and, by the way, thank you for your service) ex-Coasties, have mentioned. Expensive, and nothing works dependably without proper preventive maintenance, but DEPENDABLE.
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Old 05-07-2015, 19:09   #25
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Re: Submersible Trash Pump for Emergency Use

Having a high volume pump of some type aboard a boat is an option I would like.

Here is a recent example where a boat "taking on water" (and lost) due to the pumps it had not keeping up with water ingress.

The sailor is VERY experienced (9 circumnavigations).

He was alone on a delivery. Singlehanding.
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A few quotes from the ABC News article (linked below):

He said the seas were extremely rough, punching a hole in the deck of the yacht.
"It looked like two skin fittings had come away leaving two holes," he said.

"I blocked it first with a screwdriver and rags, then tried soft wooden plugs but couldn't do that.

"Eventually I got two bolts in it with a special putty that sets in water and that seemed to hold it, so I put my emergency pump in that bay. That removed the water but it was also coming from elsewhere.

"It was coming in faster than pump could cope the floorboards were floating."
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Here are links to the three threads on this forum where it is being noted and discussed, along with long excerpts from his interview and a link to the video of his rescue.

Another Successful EPIRB Rescue
in Safety and Related Gear forum

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ue-148574.html

General Sailing Forum
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...st-148579.html

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ne-148551.html

World record-holding sailor Jon Sanders rescued from stricken yacht off WA's Gascoyne coast - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)
World record-holding sailor Jon Sanders blames 'huge, confused swell' after rescue off WA coast - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)
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Old 05-07-2015, 19:21   #26
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Re: Submersible Trash Pump for Emergency Use

HopCar,

An alarm is definitely a must on any off shore boat. Actually any boat in the water needs a loud alarm when the bilge level goes above "normal". Our boat sounds a screeching alarm anytime the bilge pump runs. It's a nuisance sometimes but we normally don't ship water unless doing maintenance.

There are many stories about people finding out the boat is sinking when the floor boards go awash. That is pretty late and in many boats there is over 1,000 gallons aboard by that point. Finding the leak early is the #1 priority in my view. The earlier the leak is located the easier it will be to slow or stop the inflow.

I like your bilge pump arrangement and am planning something similar for our boat.
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Old 05-07-2015, 19:30   #27
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Re: Submersible Trash Pump for Emergency Use

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steady Hand View Post
Having a high volume pump of some type aboard a boat is an option I would like.

Here is a recent example where a boat "taking on water" (and lost) due to the pumps it had not keeping up with water ingress.

The sailor is VERY experienced (9 circumnavigations).

He was alone on a delivery. Singlehanding.
He is also in his 70's. I suspect there is a bit more to the story but I don't have any facts other than the initial report. The report said he was engaged in damage control but could not get the holes plugged. It sounded like a fairly minimal damage control kit was available (wooden plugs and some epoxy putty). When he left the boat it was still pretty high in the water. Hopefully we'll get more info on this incident but right now there are more questions than answers.
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Old 05-07-2015, 20:08   #28
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Re: Submersible Trash Pump for Emergency Use

I certainly agree about the alarm. It's just stupid that I haven't installed one before now.

My two 750 GPH pumps started out as 500 GPH but when I replaced them I realized I could go up to 750 without changing the hose size. Why not go bigger?

The same thing happens with 1500 pumps. You can replace them with 2000 GPH pumps without changing the hose and thru-hull.

I don't feel the need to carry a manual pump. In an emergency any crew I have aboard would be more useful helping to fix the damage rather than working the pump.
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Old 05-07-2015, 21:37   #29
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Re: Submersible Trash Pump for Emergency Use

Years ago in a previous life as a salvage diver, we regularly used small portable gas powered trash pumps; 6 to 8 hp with 100 to 150 gpm output. On a cruising boat you're not talking about much lift or head.
They worked great. Re-filling those small gas tanks was a bit of a pain.
An example of such can be seen at the following link (if I attached it correctly).
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Sportsman-7-HP-Gas-Powered-2-in-Utility-Water-Pump-TWPUMP/202435981[/URL]
These type units won't pass a 2" obstruction; you'd probably need a 6" pump to do that. However, unless the pirates of the Caribbean have put a small cannon ball through your hull, you wouldn't need the volume that a pump that size can generate.
Would take up a lot of space too.
As others have said, use a screen on the intake.
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Old 06-07-2015, 04:00   #30
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Re: Submersible Trash Pump for Emergency Use

Hi im the final stages of preparing for extended cruising. I have considered the possibility of collision of a sizeable object such as a large log or steel container holing the boat. I have 4 items in my armory for this event.
1.An underwater camera with led lights on a telescopic pole linked to a portable DVD player. It will be quicker to find the hole by surveying the outside of the hull underwater than ripping up large amounts of the furniture and fittings inside to locate the ingress
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