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Old 16-01-2015, 07:38   #61
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pirate Re: Storm techniques for a modern cruiser

This is the baby.. they were built to rigorous Lloyds specifications.
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Old 16-01-2015, 07:48   #62
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pirate Re: Storm techniques for a modern cruiser

Lateral Stability


During the stability test the stability is measured*, which is specified by the design of the hull, weight of the hull and the ballast of 1 t. The more stability the boat has the more wind pressure she can endure.
The average of stability (the medium of the values between 5 and 35) is used to compare the stability in the left diagram. (That means the comparison between the minimal ever measured keel boat stability ("Starlet") and the maximal ever measured keel boat stability ("Hanseat")).
The curve in the right diagram is very instructive as well. You can see the heeling range where the boat is exceptionally stiff.
The Hurley is one of the stiffest boats we have ever tested, which is caused by her big ballast ratio of more than 50 %. Yet, the initial stability is not very big, but when she is heeling more than 15 her weight of keel is becoming noticeable. It might be very difficult to heel the boat more than 35. Caused by her almost not existing form stability the Hurley will always sail lightly heeled. That is not a handicap, but heeled between 15 and 20 she has her best sailing qualities.
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Old 16-01-2015, 10:41   #63
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Re: Storm techniques for a modern cruiser

We had plenty fuel and quickly realised the boat was not built for these conditions. we only had only a brief discussion about what our best options were after we got water levels down and the engine started. When we saw how steep and high the breaking waves were, neither of us were keen to try run before it. Our first thought was to motor into it as we felt we would have the best control. Also we wanted to get further out to sea as we felt if we lost engine or rudder or got rolled again, a very like posability, the more sea room we had the better. Running before it would have us closing a lee shore and we didnt relish that idea.. Once we climbed over a few big waves and we felt we had control we were happy to keep that idea going as long as it was working. We eventually got ashore safely without much further damage, so in that context our plan worked. Whether or not technically it 'was the right thing to do' we will never know. But it was right for us on that day on that boat in those conditions in that location.
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Old 16-01-2015, 10:56   #64
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Re: Storm techniques for a modern cruiser

Ok in a nutshell we were in Morocco and we were in a hurry to get back to Spain to catch a flight Home. We had a forecast of increasing westerly to force 6-7. That didnt bother us a whole lot as we are 2 experienced sailors with 1 other inexperienced crew. But thinking back if we had no pressure to travel we probably would not have set out. Now we have a generator with a large 2kw electric submersible pump and every locker has a lock. I know that sounds silly but alot of lockers opened and dumped everything into the sea or open space in the boat. Like I said a lot of lessons learned.
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Old 16-01-2015, 11:19   #65
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Re: Storm techniques for a modern cruiser

Quote:
Originally Posted by cajucito View Post
We had plenty fuel and quickly realised the boat was not built for these conditions. we only had only a brief discussion about what our best options were after we got water levels down and the engine started. When we saw how steep and high the breaking waves were, neither of us were keen to try run before it. Our first thought was to motor into it as we felt we would have the best control. Also we wanted to get further out to sea as we felt if we lost engine or rudder or got rolled again, a very like posability, the more sea room we had the better. Running before it would have us closing a lee shore and we didnt relish that idea.. Once we climbed over a few big waves and we felt we had control we were happy to keep that idea going as long as it was working. We eventually got ashore safely without much further damage, so in that context our plan worked. Whether or not technically it 'was the right thing to do' we will never know. But it was right for us on that day on that boat in those conditions in that location.
Jesus, all that and a lee shore, too. Now I see why you did what you did. Wow. I would not have wanted to be in that situation in any boat.
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Old 16-01-2015, 12:10   #66
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Re: Storm techniques for a modern cruiser

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Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
Lateral Stability


During the stability test the stability is measured*, which is specified by the design of the hull, weight of the hull and the ballast of 1 t. The more stability the boat has the more wind pressure she can endure.
The average of stability (the medium of the values between 5 and 35) is used to compare the stability in the left diagram. (That means the comparison between the minimal ever measured keel boat stability ("Starlet") and the maximal ever measured keel boat stability ("Hanseat")).
The curve in the right diagram is very instructive as well. You can see the heeling range where the boat is exceptionally stiff.
The Hurley is one of the stiffest boats we have ever tested, which is caused by her big ballast ratio of more than 50 %. Yet, the initial stability is not very big, but when she is heeling more than 15 her weight of keel is becoming noticeable. It might be very difficult to heel the boat more than 35. Caused by her almost not existing form stability the Hurley will always sail lightly heeled. That is not a handicap, but heeled between 15 and 20 she has her best sailing qualities.
Tough little boat!

I think I could just about take her onto my afterdeck -- would only stick out less than a meter each side

Interesting that the whole design philosophy is the exact opposite of many modern boats -- huge ballast stability, almost no form stability, narrow beam, huge ballast ratio. This is a boat which will have no initial resistance to heeling, but therafter will be stiff as a board, and will pop up instantly if knocked down.

On the negative side, it will have much more wetted surface than a lighter boat, and naturally, it's very heavy. So it will be a slow slug, and will need a lot of power and effort to get it moving.

The latest fashion boats with wide beam particularly aft and flat aft sections are just the opposite -- lots of intial resistance to heel so they sail flat in normal conditions. But God help you if you get rolled -- all that form stability works just as well inverted as it does upright, so there will be a lot more area, proportionately, under the negative stability curve. This can be compensated with a very deep bulb keel, but it is not always so.
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Old 16-01-2015, 14:21   #67
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Re: Storm techniques for a modern cruiser

We had many an interesting hours after the event analysing everything in minute detail, mostly to try and learn as much as possible from the experience. We arrived at some interesting conclusions which I would like to share and I will be very interested in hearing other opinions.
1. We agreed that formulating a plan and actively working that plan until it came undone was a good idea. We never felt any fear as we had no time for that. We were too busy fighting for the ship and crew and trying to improve our situation. If you have no plan and try to 'ride it out', then maybe you sit there and have too much time to think about your bad situation and start to feel fear. When fear takes hold you can start to behave irrationally and do stupid things in panic. Thats when the risk factor heads for the sky. So actively executing a plan even if its not the best one in our view is a good idea.
2. We have all read the heavy weather sailing books and there are many views, all well founded, on what the best thing to do in a given situation is. We concluded that by all means every skipper should read all thats available on this subject. Every Boat, Crew, Weather situation, Conditions, Location is going to be different so you always have to carefully weigh up everything that has a bearing on your situation on that day and work out the best course of action with the greatest chance of success. There is no 'Best Plan' its very different every time.
3. Consider that if yo did not have to go, would you? and if you have a doubt, Dont go. When you are under time pressure for a flight you see the the weather from a different view. The safety of you boat and crew become a secondary consideration, your primary is making that flight, which of course is a big mistake always. Even on our last day at sea we will still learn something new.
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Old 16-01-2015, 15:40   #68
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Re: Storm techniques for a modern cruiser

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...am going to do it anyway.
Yes, fair enough

You would have to call me on that, eh?
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Old 16-01-2015, 15:42   #69
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Re: Storm techniques for a modern cruiser

Quote:
Originally Posted by cajucito View Post
We had many an interesting hours after the event analysing everything in minute detail, mostly to try and learn as much as possible from the experience. We arrived at some interesting conclusions which I would like to share and I will be very interested in hearing other opinions.
1. We agreed that formulating a plan and actively working that plan until it came undone was a good idea. We never felt any fear as we had no time for that. We were too busy fighting for the ship and crew and trying to improve our situation. If you have no plan and try to 'ride it out', then maybe you sit there and have too much time to think about your bad situation and start to feel fear. When fear takes hold you can start to behave irrationally and do stupid things in panic. Thats when the risk factor heads for the sky. So actively executing a plan even if its not the best one in our view is a good idea.
2. We have all read the heavy weather sailing books and there are many views, all well founded, on what the best thing to do in a given situation is. We concluded that by all means every skipper should read all thats available on this subject. Every Boat, Crew, Weather situation, Conditions, Location is going to be different so you always have to carefully weigh up everything that has a bearing on your situation on that day and work out the best course of action with the greatest chance of success. There is no 'Best Plan' its very different every time.
3. Consider that if yo did not have to go, would you? and if you have a doubt, Dont go. When you are under time pressure for a flight you see the the weather from a different view. The safety of you boat and crew become a secondary consideration, your primary is making that flight, which of course is a big mistake always. Even on our last day at sea we will still learn something new.
Great commentary

Should be a sticky.
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Old 17-01-2015, 08:08   #70
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Re: Storm techniques for a modern cruiser

Quote:
Originally Posted by cajucito View Post
We had many an interesting hours after the event analysing everything in minute detail, mostly to try and learn as much as possible from the experience. We arrived at some interesting conclusions which I would like to share and I will be very interested in hearing other opinions.
1. We agreed that formulating a plan and actively working that plan until it came undone was a good idea. We never felt any fear as we had no time for that. We were too busy fighting for the ship and crew and trying to improve our situation. If you have no plan and try to 'ride it out', then maybe you sit there and have too much time to think about your bad situation and start to feel fear. When fear takes hold you can start to behave irrationally and do stupid things in panic. Thats when the risk factor heads for the sky. So actively executing a plan even if its not the best one in our view is a good idea.
2. We have all read the heavy weather sailing books and there are many views, all well founded, on what the best thing to do in a given situation is. We concluded that by all means every skipper should read all thats available on this subject. Every Boat, Crew, Weather situation, Conditions, Location is going to be different so you always have to carefully weigh up everything that has a bearing on your situation on that day and work out the best course of action with the greatest chance of success. There is no 'Best Plan' its very different every time.
3. Consider that if yo did not have to go, would you? and if you have a doubt, Dont go. When you are under time pressure for a flight you see the the weather from a different view. The safety of you boat and crew become a secondary consideration, your primary is making that flight, which of course is a big mistake always. Even on our last day at sea we will still learn something new.
INdeed, words of wisdom to be heeded
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Old 17-01-2015, 08:25   #71
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pirate Re: Storm techniques for a modern cruiser

Quote:
Originally Posted by cajucito View Post
We had many an interesting hours after the event analysing everything in minute detail, mostly to try and learn as much as possible from the experience. We arrived at some interesting conclusions which I would like to share and I will be very interested in hearing other opinions.
1. We agreed that formulating a plan and actively working that plan until it came undone was a good idea. We never felt any fear as we had no time for that. We were too busy fighting for the ship and crew and trying to improve our situation. If you have no plan and try to 'ride it out', then maybe you sit there and have too much time to think about your bad situation and start to feel fear. When fear takes hold you can start to behave irrationally and do stupid things in panic. Thats when the risk factor heads for the sky. So actively executing a plan even if its not the best one in our view is a good idea.
Riding it out 'Hove To' one busy's oneself below.. hot drinks.. hot food.. tidy up.. again..
2. We have all read the heavy weather sailing books and there are many views, all well founded, on what the best thing to do in a given situation is. We concluded that by all means every skipper should read all thats available on this subject. Every Boat, Crew, Weather situation, Conditions, Location is going to be different so you always have to carefully weigh up everything that has a bearing on your situation on that day and work out the best course of action with the greatest chance of success. There is no 'Best Plan' its very different every time.
That's 75% accurate..
3. Consider that if yo did not have to go, would you? and if you have a doubt, Dont go. When you are under time pressure for a flight you see the the weather from a different view. The safety of you boat and crew become a secondary consideration, your primary is making that flight, which of course is a big mistake always. Even on our last day at sea we will still learn something new.
Schedules are a killer... unless your working the insurance..
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Old 17-01-2015, 15:15   #72
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Re: Storm techniques for a modern cruiser

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Ok in a nutshell we were in Morocco and we were in a hurry to get back to Spain to catch a flight Home. We had a forecast of increasing westerly to force 6-7. That didnt bother us a whole lot as we are 2 experienced sailors with 1 other inexperienced crew. But thinking back if we had no pressure to travel we probably would not have set out. Now we have a generator with a large 2kw electric submersible pump and every locker has a lock. I know that sounds silly but alot of lockers opened and dumped everything into the sea or open space in the boat. Like I said a lot of lessons learned.
Quite the experience my friend. Question was your 36 footer classified as offshore A in the CE approval??
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