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Old 30-10-2014, 15:48   #46
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Re: Storm techniques for a modern cruiser

Piou, On my boat, if the parachute is streamed directly from the bow, she will sail out either side, then tack violently, repeat.

If the bridle is used, it holds the boat on one tack, and the motion is much better - also holding behind the anchor like this is heaps better! IMO a bridle is essential - on my boat anyway.

Like all things, it may not suit your boat, and you must decide what is best for you.
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Old 30-10-2014, 16:40   #47
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Re: Storm techniques for a modern cruiser

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Originally Posted by ontherocks83 View Post
Does anyone know what the best style of holding point is for a JSD? By reading their website I can't figure out if they recommend reinforced deck cleats or some type of reinforced hardware bolted directly into the transom?

Anyone have experience intalling holding points for a JSD?

BethandEvans recommend a horizontal chainplate type fitting hanging off each quarter.
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Old 16-01-2015, 04:03   #48
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Re: Storm techniques for a modern cruiser

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Originally Posted by carstenb View Post
Thank you for this description. Happy you made it out ok. I am awed. Just for the record, since we have so many nay-sayers here re: production boats - how did the Jeanneau 36 fair? After you got her bailed out and the storm died down. Any truly lasting damage?

carsten
sorry for the long delay. The Janeau did ok considering. Damage was as follows
Sails ripped to shreds
spray hood was sheared off and disappeared overboard as well as everything underneath it. A spare Life jacket that was under the spray hood ended up wedged between the top of the mast and the backstay and was still up there when we finally made land fall creating some interesting looks.
Two spreaders were broken but the mast stayed up
2 bent stantions
lots of gear disappeared overboard incl epirb and expensive stabalizing binoculars.
We were told the keel to hull joint was damaged but on close examination it turned out not to be the case.
we hauled her out took down the mast and did all the repairs ourselves.
On reflection. A boat like a janeau 36 is too light in my view for offfshore conditions. I now sail in a beneteau 44 (different friend) which is much heavier and I would feel much safer in that boat.
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Old 16-01-2015, 04:29   #49
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Re: Storm techniques for a modern cruiser

Quote:
Originally Posted by cajucito View Post
sorry for the long delay. The Janeau did ok considering. Damage was as follows
Sails ripped to shreds
spray hood was sheared off and disappeared overboard as well as everything underneath it. A spare Life jacket that was under the spray hood ended up wedged between the top of the mast and the backstay and was still up there when we finally made land fall creating some interesting looks.
Two spreaders were broken but the mast stayed up
2 bent stantions
lots of gear disappeared overboard incl epirb and expensive stabalizing binoculars.
We were told the keel to hull joint was damaged but on close examination it turned out not to be the case.
we hauled her out took down the mast and did all the repairs ourselves.
On reflection. A boat like a janeau 36 is too light in my view for offfshore conditions. I now sail in a beneteau 44 (different friend) which is much heavier and I would feel much safer in that boat.
Interesting. Lots on this forum sould say a 44 foot beneteau is also a light boat. what were the conditions you rolled in? In the med?

It acutally sounds like your damage was light (not in an way discounting this - but loosing what was topside is a given and I guess the sprayhood also.

Good news was the mast stayed up. Can't even imaginethe mess below!
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Old 16-01-2015, 04:46   #50
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Re: Storm techniques for a modern cruiser

Quote:
Originally Posted by carstenb View Post
Interesting. Lots on this forum sould say a 44 foot beneteau is also a light boat. what were the conditions you rolled in? In the med?

It acutally sounds like your damage was light (not in an way discounting this - but loosing what was topside is a given and I guess the sprayhood also.

Good news was the mast stayed up. Can't even imaginethe mess below!
A B44 is lightish for her length, but still much heavier than a much smaller J36, so a big difference in seaworthiness.

You've been on my boat in some pretty rough weather -- would you guess that she's lighter than either a B44 or J36, proportionate to length, on the basis of D/L ratio? Size makes a world of difference in seaworthiness.

Best wishes to the OP -- what a nightmare!
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Old 16-01-2015, 05:53   #51
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Re: Storm techniques for a modern cruiser

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
A B44 is lightish for her length, but still much heavier than a much smaller J36, so a big difference in seaworthiness.

You've been on my boat in some pretty rough weather -- would you guess that she's lighter than either a B44 or J36, proportionate to length, on the basis of D/L ratio? Size makes a world of difference in seaworthiness.

Best wishes to the OP -- what a nightmare!
Well, just thinking, our boat is 40 feet and reasonably loaded is over 10 tons

Yours is 54 feet and 25 (?) tons.

So your is about 1/2 ton per foot, ours is 1/4 ton per foot or half. I suspect the 44 bene has something like our D/L
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Old 16-01-2015, 06:01   #52
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Re: Storm techniques for a modern cruiser

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Originally Posted by cajucito View Post
A sea anchor deployed from the bow is best in my view but accept it depends on the boat. Running on bare poles can be dangerous in my view as your boat is pushed out of control into the danger zone as a wave builds to a steep wall before breaking on your stern whereas a bow set sea anchor will pull the sharp end of the boat thru a breaking wave.
I was always a vocal proponent of running until I read Larry's and Lin's "Storm Tactics". It's a good book (but not the only book) for the simple fact that they boil things down to manageable tactics for short-handers. They make a very good argument against running based on one simple fact; when it gets to the point where running is no longer safe, changing tactics becomes a difficult and dangerous proposition. That's been my experience too but for whatever reason I never articulated it in my mind quite so simply. So the lesson is stop running well before it becomes difficult to do anything else.[/QUOTE]

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Usually the most frightened of your crew with a large bucket will bail the quickest.
I'm going to remember that line till the end of my days.

As far as companionways go, there are more robust, watertight solutions out there that you can retrofit to your boat although they are no doubt expensive. My boat has a watertight companionway that looks like it is Lewmar but I don't see it in their current catalog.

I do think it's important for any boat going offshore to rig a solution where the companionway can be closed and latched/locked from either inside or out, and then unlatched from the opposite side if necessary. That's the OSR rule and there are numerous scenarios where the wisdom of that is obvious.
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Old 16-01-2015, 06:06   #53
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pirate Re: Storm techniques for a modern cruiser

Now this is where we disagree.. size an weight..
I've sailed a 22ft Hurley in 70+kts with 10-11 metre breaking sea's in Dec across the Biscay.. had 3 big fishing boats founder in my area over the space of 24hrs.. sea's and winds official.. not my guesstimate... no knockdowns.. a few waves over the decks and through the hatches but no damage..
Sailing a BR 54 (reefed) NE of the Bahamas I got knocked down in a F8..
Guess what I feel safer in.. in a blow..
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Old 16-01-2015, 06:12   #54
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Re: Storm techniques for a modern cruiser

We had 65kn gusts and sustained 50+. The wind was peeling back skin on the helmsmans face and the sea was a mass of white spume and the horizon was not visible at all, the sea was almost flattened at times by the force of the wind and then out of nowhere you would get big walls of breaking waves. It was in february and not forecast. The forecast was force 6-7 at worst. We were near the island of Aboran in water that was too shallow when it started to blow up. Very deep water far away from land is the best place to be in those conditions where the long rollers are more predictable and easier to manage. Under almost full engine power facing the weather we were still going backwards trying to corkscrew our way over the waves and doing our best at avoiding the breaking crests. We took 15 minute turns on the wheel where the spray was hitting you in the face like pellets and you could barely keep you eyes open. We were afraid to run before it. All harbours were closed due to breaking waves at the west facing entrances. Only every 6th or so harbour had an east facing entrance. Trying to get to shelter was too dangerous so we opted to stay well out to sea until conditions improved which was the right option. When wind eventually started to die down the storm vanished as quick as it blew up. In all we were fighting it for about 9-10 hours but it seemed much longer. Lots of lessons were learned that day. The Bene 44cc weighs just under 14000 KG on the sling so she does have a bit of weight and it makes ALL the difference in rough weather.
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Old 16-01-2015, 06:53   #55
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Re: Storm techniques for a modern cruiser

Within the same storm ("all other things equal" etc) the small boat (size-wise or weight-wise) gets overpowered earlier. It is also the one that will get her crew tired beyond use sooner.

When two boats have the same displacement but hugely differ in size, the smaller may be the more comfortable or/and the safer one. However, as these two boats will use different storm sailing techniques (or not) then no comparisons will hold any practical value.

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Old 16-01-2015, 07:06   #56
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Re: Storm techniques for a modern cruiser

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Originally Posted by carstenb View Post
Well, just thinking, our boat is 40 feet and reasonably loaded is over 10 tons

Yours is 54 feet and 25 (?) tons.

So your is about 1/2 ton per foot, ours is 1/4 ton per foot or half. I suspect the 44 bene has something like our D/L
It doesn't work like that:

D / L = Displacement / ( 0.01 * LWL )3

That's because length does not make a linear, but rather geometrical effect.

So a Bene Oceanis 44 has D/L of 210

Moody 54 is 188


You have the Sun Fast 40.3, right? That should be D/L of 217, if sailboatdata.com is right (sometimes it's wrong).


A little thread drift, but I am a big fan of Jeanneaus, which are in my experience the very best designed and best built production boats. I spent some time on a friend's Sun Odyssey 44, which besides sailing like greased lightning, was strikingly beautiful:

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Old 16-01-2015, 07:11   #57
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Re: Storm techniques for a modern cruiser

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Now this is where we disagree.. size an weight..
I've sailed a 22ft Hurley in 70+kts with 10-11 metre breaking sea's in Dec across the Biscay.. had 3 big fishing boats founder in my area over the space of 24hrs.. sea's and winds official.. not my guesstimate... no knockdowns.. a few waves over the decks and through the hatches but no damage..
Sailing a BR 54 (reefed) NE of the Bahamas I got knocked down in a F8..
Guess what I feel safer in.. in a blow..
In a 22' Hurley, Boatie, I'm guessing your balls were the moveable ballast which gave you the killer edge . . . .

I can't even imagine what kind of set it takes to stay alive in a boat like that in conditions like that . . . incredible . . .
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Old 16-01-2015, 07:21   #58
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Re: Storm techniques for a modern cruiser

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Originally Posted by cajucito View Post
We had 65kn gusts and sustained 50+. The wind was peeling back skin on the helmsmans face and the sea was a mass of white spume and the horizon was not visible at all, the sea was almost flattened at times by the force of the wind and then out of nowhere you would get big walls of breaking waves. It was in february and not forecast. The forecast was force 6-7 at worst. We were near the island of Aboran in water that was too shallow when it started to blow up. Very deep water far away from land is the best place to be in those conditions where the long rollers are more predictable and easier to manage. Under almost full engine power facing the weather we were still going backwards trying to corkscrew our way over the waves and doing our best at avoiding the breaking crests. We took 15 minute turns on the wheel where the spray was hitting you in the face like pellets and you could barely keep you eyes open. We were afraid to run before it. All harbours were closed due to breaking waves at the west facing entrances. Only every 6th or so harbour had an east facing entrance. Trying to get to shelter was too dangerous so we opted to stay well out to sea until conditions improved which was the right option. When wind eventually started to die down the storm vanished as quick as it blew up. In all we were fighting it for about 9-10 hours but it seemed much longer. Lots of lessons were learned that day. The Bene 44cc weighs just under 14000 KG on the sling so she does have a bit of weight and it makes ALL the difference in rough weather.
Unbelievable story. A great testimony to your skill and courage.

I would be worried about the rudder getting broken, if you were being taken aback at full engine power -- wow. You'd be in deep trouble with a broken rudder in weather like that. Remember that catamaran which was lost like this in a storm off the U.S. East Coast? I guess it's not really appropriate to armchair quarterback a scenario like that, which most of us can't even imagine, but I would have headed downwind and trailed warps.
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Old 16-01-2015, 07:26   #59
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pirate Re: Storm techniques for a modern cruiser

[QUOTE=Dockhead;1726196]Unbelievable story. A great testimony to your skill and courage.
I would be worried about the rudder getting broken, if you were being taken aback at full engine power -- wow. You'd be in deep trouble with a broken rudder in weather like that. QUOTE]

+A1....
I dislike the Med for sailing.. either to little wind.. or to much..
and the sea.. Its a boat breaker...
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Old 16-01-2015, 07:35   #60
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Re: Storm techniques for a modern cruiser

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I guess it's not really appropriate to armchair quarterback a scenario like that, which most of us can't even imagine, but I...
...am going to do it anyway.
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