Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 29-10-2014, 12:01   #31
Registered User
 
svHannabel's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Great Lakes
Boat: Catalina 34
Posts: 253
Re: Storm techniques for a modern cruiser

I've been mulling over similar questions during the last several months. I've read most of the books listed in this thread and many are great, but the perhaps the newest and easiest to digest is Kretschmer's Sailing a Serious Ocean. While not dedicated solely to storm sailing, he focuses a lot on storm tactics and compares and contrasts full keel classics with more modern lightweight fin keelers often.

In my reading, it basically boiled down to these options for me: running off, lying ahull, heaving to, fore reaching. More details on my thoughts for each are here.

Also, there is lots of great advice and firsthand experience on this forum, so I'm sure this thread will develop into a great resource in and of itself.
__________________

__________________
SailFarLiveFree.com
svHannabel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-10-2014, 12:14   #32
Senior Cruiser
 
Cheechako's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Skagit City, WA
Posts: 19,352
Re: Storm techniques for a modern cruiser

You can heave to for a lunch stop in your fin keeler. But in heavy seas it just wont work and may be dangerous. I would rely on a drogue, running with the weather, possibly a chute etc and focus on what you would do using those techniques.
__________________

__________________
"I spent most of my money on Booze, Broads and Boats. The rest I wasted" - Elmore Leonard











Cheechako is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-10-2014, 14:34   #33
Sponsoring Vendor
 
Neptune's Gear's Avatar

Community Sponsor

Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Gulf Harbour, New Zealand
Boat: Farr Phase 4, 12.8m
Posts: 992
Re: Storm techniques for a modern cruiser

Preparation is the key. The boat, the weather, the course, the timing, and the crew. I've never been rolled, but have had the rig in the water a couple of times, and been in conditions that could roll you as above.
As cajucito said, batteries - sealed ones are good!!- properly fastened down. Same for gas bottles, anchors, stoves, and all other heavy objects. All lockers, especially top opening ones should have strong latches, INCL fridge/freezer, AND under bunk storage. Floorboards screwed down, and latches on the ones covering the sumps/pumps etc for easy access. Washboards latchable from inside and out, AND tied on so they can't be lost. Think about what will happen in your boat if inverted and violently shaken. No heavy items in open fronted lockers. Does your deck accessed anchor locker have a catch sufficient to stop the boat from attempting to anchor itself? Etc etc.

Cajucito, I'm sure we could all learn something from your experience. What were the conditions (Wind, waves, fetch, situation on board etc) that resulted in your capsize?
__________________
Matt Paulin
Neptunes Gear Ltd
www.neptunes-gear.com
Neptune's Gear is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-10-2014, 16:01   #34
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 19,737
Re: Storm techniques for a modern cruiser

Quote:
Originally Posted by svHannabel View Post
I've been mulling over similar questions during the last several months. I've read most of the books listed in this thread and many are great, but the perhaps the newest and easiest to digest is Kretschmer's Sailing a Serious Ocean. While not dedicated solely to storm sailing, he focuses a lot on storm tactics and compares and contrasts full keel classics with more modern lightweight fin keelers often.

In my reading, it basically boiled down to these options for me: running off, lying ahull, heaving to, fore reaching. More details on my thoughts for each are here.

Also, there is lots of great advice and firsthand experience on this forum, so I'm sure this thread will develop into a great resource in and of itself.
I surely don't recommend lying ahull in a Catalina 34.
__________________
Dockhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-10-2014, 16:03   #35
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 19,737
Re: Storm techniques for a modern cruiser

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neptune's Gear View Post
Cajucito, I'm sure we could all learn something from your experience. What were the conditions (Wind, waves, fetch, situation on board etc) that resulted in your capsize?
+1

Such an event must be exceptionally rare in the Med. Details, please!
__________________
Dockhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-10-2014, 17:01   #36
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,649
Images: 3
Re: Storm techniques for a modern cruiser

Quote:
My advice is then:

- when sea room available: RUN,
- if running too fast: tow a drogue,
- if no sea room: fore reach at tight angle,
- if damaged or completely exhausted, deploy a big sea anchor,
- you can use a blade jib and the motor to fore reach, as long as you have fuel.

I think close fore reaching at limited speed is safer than being hove to.

I think being hove to in real bad sea state is asking for trouble. The smaller and lighter the boat, the bigger the risk.

Prefer active approaches over passive ones. Bad things happen (more often) when we think 'she will take care of herself and her crew'.
Im with "the man" word for word.

I would say that my experience of series drogues, is they sometimes slow the boat way too much. I have found towing warps to be more effective, especially in modern designs with good downwind hydrodynamic stability and spade rudders etc, You really want the boat to be able to make 5-7kts + not 2-3, this helps steering and prevents wallowing in the troughs

I have only used a parachute in "semi-anger" and I have my doubts , Im am a fan of fore reaching under tiny sail and engine, rather akin to "jogging" works really well on modern yachts, this is my preferred approach and can often be done under autopilot in survival conditions.
__________________
Check out my new blog on smart boat technology, networking and gadgets for the connected sailor! - http://smartboats.tumblr.com
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-10-2014, 17:06   #37
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,649
Images: 3
Re: Storm techniques for a modern cruiser

Quote:
Lots to be said on this subject. I was rolled 360 in the med in a Janneau 36. A few lessons learned.
You can be rolled in any size boat, make sure your batteries can not fall out of their housings. All our batteries fell out and disconnected and spilled battery acid everywhere.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
+1

Such an event must be exceptionally rare in the Med. Details, please!
from my experience, if its bad, the med is one of the worst places, of the four greater then 90 degree knockdowns ( outside of racing) i have experienced , 2 were in the Med.
As for the Batteries, I can sympathise, on one occasion, they did, they are lethal objects flying around a boat, never mind the acid. Its something I now check and secure.

dave
__________________
Check out my new blog on smart boat technology, networking and gadgets for the connected sailor! - http://smartboats.tumblr.com
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-10-2014, 04:12   #38
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Caribbean
Boat: Oyster 66
Posts: 973
Re: Storm techniques for a modern cruiser

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post

I would say that my experience of series drogues, is they sometimes slow the boat way too much. I have found towing warps to be more effective, especially in modern designs with good downwind hydrodynamic stability and spade rudders etc, You really want the boat to be able to make 5-7kts + not 2-3, this helps steering and prevents wallowing in the troughs.
A Jordan series drogue can be made any length to give you the speed you want, but they are not really intended as a speed control device. its greatest value and unique features come out when it is used in an emergency to save the ship. In those conditions you need to avoid a broach. Preventing steering and preventing the boat from turning by holding the stern to the wind is the aim of the device.
__________________
poiu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-10-2014, 04:23   #39
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Caribbean
Boat: Oyster 66
Posts: 973
Re: Storm techniques for a modern cruiser

Quote:
Originally Posted by svHannabel View Post

In my reading, it basically boiled down to these options for me: running off, lying ahull, heaving to, fore reaching.
It depends on what the aim is. If there is a chance of getting rolled then lying ahull is analogous to a rabbit looking at the headlights. It may well get lucky. If it is not a survival situation, as it is more comfortable then why not heave to? Lying ahull is not on my list of options
__________________
poiu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-10-2014, 04:39   #40
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Caribbean
Boat: Oyster 66
Posts: 973
Re: Storm techniques for a modern cruiser

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neptune's Gear View Post

We did not go to the foredeck until 3 days later when we recovered the parachute....
How did the boat sit behind the parachute - did it sit quietly in line with the rode or was there yawning/sailing side to side?

I would be hesitant to use this system in my boat as it is prone to sailing at anchor, which will put great load on the parachute plus putting my beam onto the sea. How does your boat sit at anchor?
__________________
poiu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-10-2014, 04:42   #41
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 4,931
Re: Storm techniques for a modern cruiser

If you have a full crew then your storm options have a larger menu, if you are short handed you had better have a passive way to deal with major weather systems because as you get tired you are no longer able to even make decent decisions. The series drogue has been proven in the worst conditions and as far as I know is the only system that has been fully evaluated by the US Coastguard.
Make sure you have strong and secure lee cloths where you can rest without getting tossed around. Many of the modern boats are very poorly designed for offshore storms so make sure you have proper hand holds where needed. There is a lot of preparation you need to do before things get really bad from gear to making sure you have food that doesn't need cooking.
__________________
robert sailor is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 30-10-2014, 04:47   #42
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 4,931
Re: Storm techniques for a modern cruiser

As far as using a blade head sail and jogging slowly upwind, this option only works in medium conditions. In real storm conditions there is no bloody way you will be jogging upwind as the seas are just to high and breaking. Your only good choice is to run off or to use a drogue or something similar if short handed.
__________________
robert sailor is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 30-10-2014, 06:53   #43
Registered User
 
Icarus's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Brisbane
Boat: S&S 40
Posts: 33
Re: Storm techniques for a modern cruiser

The Jordan drogue is the best, plus a rope long enough to get behind the following wave, so you might need something like 600 to 1000 feet of rope. the good thing of the Jordan is that the drogue is tuned to your particular boat.
The other thing is that 'modern' boats have poor strong points where to attach the drogue, so cleats must be large and have a substantial backing plate under the deck. Seems to be obvious. And lock the cabin sole hatches so the don't become missiles.
__________________
Icarus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-10-2014, 07:14   #44
Registered User
 
ontherocks83's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Massachusetts
Boat: Checkmate Strobe 201
Posts: 1,593
Re: Storm techniques for a modern cruiser

Quote:
Originally Posted by Icarus View Post
The other thing is that 'modern' boats have poor strong points where to attach the drogue, so cleats must be large and have a substantial backing plate under the deck. Seems to be obvious. .
Does anyone know what the best style of holding point is for a JSD? By reading their website I can't figure out if they recommend reinforced deck cleats or some type of reinforced hardware bolted directly into the transom?

Anyone have experience intalling holding points for a JSD?
__________________
-Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum
-Molon Labe
ontherocks83 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-10-2014, 07:25   #45
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2005
Boat: Nordhavn 50
Posts: 85
Re: Storm techniques for a modern cruiser

Anybody with experience with a Galerider drogue on a long enough rope?

Thanks,
Michel


Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum
__________________

__________________
siroismi is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
cruise, cruiser

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Anchoring Techniques for Storms, Hurricanes and Cyclones Hud3 Anchoring & Mooring 45 25-05-2009 15:44
Composite boat-building materials & techniques BigCat Multihull Sailboats 83 06-05-2008 23:11
Techniques to rebed dead lights (windows) Sunspot Baby Construction, Maintenance & Refit 64 18-03-2008 03:35
From Guns to Active Intelligent Preventitive Techniques swami maximus Construction, Maintenance & Refit 8 22-12-2007 11:31
Sail Repair Techniques/Recommendations? Melody1204 Deck hardware: Rigging, Sails & Hoisting 9 21-05-2007 20:53



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 19:36.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.