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Old 09-07-2014, 12:24   #61
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Re: St Augustine Mooring Fails, city says they'll pay.

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Originally Posted by Boatguy30 View Post
Ah, but now you've just outed yourself as a dirtbag moocher.

On a related note, anyone have any large danforth or claw type anchors for sale cheap?
Outed proudly. We do spend at least part of the year in a marina, but mostly I am a dirtbag moocher.

We generally take nothing out of the local economy (in the way of wages or services) and we always leave money in local merchants' pockets, plus sales tax. We clean up the water with almost every dinghy ride, picking up trash that gets in the water mainly from the waterfront homes. We never overstay our welcome, especially where we are not welcome.

When feasible, our boat and our money will skip the cities with mooring fields. We will visit places the Anchorageguy would approve of, even if it means climbing through some mangroves to spend our money with people happy to have it. I have yet to anchor anywhere as congested and noisy as the best mooring field I have visited.

One of the west coast fields has a harbormaster who is very knowledgeable and conscientious. He has custom built a boat with a crane to carry out a rigorous program of inspection and maintenance, whereby the entire mooring is pulled, inspected, and cleaned on a regular basis. Still there have been 2 cases (at least) where a boat still attached to it's mooring ball floated off in calm weather.

Any time we give a person or entity control over something that was previously free to everyone, we have made a mistake. The water belongs to all of us, not just the FWC and the waterfront owners.

The mooring fields have cured the derelict boat problem. Even if your boat can't motor or sail, is listing and partially sunken, as long as you're paying for a mooring ball it is magically no longer derelict. The mooring fields have plenty of these.

As far as funding/profit/loss, mooring field budgets are just like other government budgets, fake and padded. The above referenced city field loses money on paper every year. A quick glance at the budget shows items like over $150,000/yr for Law Enforcement costs. This is about $500/day. The only time we saw LEO during our extended stay was when he came to check boats on the harbormaster's day off, we saw them once every 2 weeks roughly. The portion of the take the City gets is $10/day, with one employee, and usually about 40 balls off season and many more during the season. It is clearly a money maker, but on paper shows a yearly loss. A private entity provides the shoreside services for about $5/day of the take. They provide showers, garbage, water, check in/out, collection, and other services requiring several employees and lots of overhead. They are making money, or they would stop. The City can't show a profit, because the budget might be reduced, and it would be hard to kill a money maker, even if that is the plan all along.

'
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Old 09-07-2014, 12:40   #62
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Re: St Augustine Mooring Fails, city says they'll pay.

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Those prices are still available, just a longer dinghy ride to ..... oh, no upland services.

Zero amenities, exponentially more ground tackle/mooring failures with no one taking responsibility.
The "anchorage" left in St Augustine, Boot Key, and Ft. Myers Beach are not just farther away, they are less suitable bottoms, less favorable protection from wind and current, and tiny compared to what used to be available.

To characterize them as the same, just farther away, is less than accurate.

Also, many cruisers have need of very little in the way of "upland services", and don't like paying for them if they don't need or use them.

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Old 09-07-2014, 12:55   #63
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Old 09-07-2014, 12:59   #64
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Re: St Augustine Mooring Fails, city says they'll pay.

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The "anchorage" left in St Augustine, Boot Key, and Ft. Myers Beach are not just farther away, they are less suitable bottoms, less favorable protection from wind and current, and tiny compared to what used to be available.

To characterize them as the same, just farther away, is less than accurate.

Also, many cruisers have need of very little in the way of "upland services", and don't like paying for them if they don't need or use them.

'
Hmm, I didn't characterize them at all. My post, which you commented on, was specific to Sarasota. I don't know/understand why you would tag me with this assertion for these other areas.
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Old 09-07-2014, 13:08   #65
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Re: St Augustine Mooring Fails, city says they'll pay.

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What tics me me off is they insist you take one. Very few places to anchor near town. Now you can't trust them, if you ever should have.
I have discussed Floridian idiocy regarding boaters privately with other aspiring cruisers. Do you think it would do much good if they knew how many people were crossing it off the "must visit one day in my boat" list?

Vote with your keel.
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Old 09-07-2014, 13:27   #66
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I have no problem bypassing towns that don't want me. And will never stay in St Augustine for a long period of time. So no skin off my nose. But the sad part was the barber that I got my haircut at said she's going out of business after I believe 30 years because the mooring fields cut her off from the cruisers. Same with a flea market and several other small businesses. just so a bunch of landowners can look out and see a bunch of dirty balls instead boats that are not pristine. Edit the flea market and other small businesses where not going out of business but people where complaining about The Moorings hurting their business
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Old 09-07-2014, 13:40   #67
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Re: St Augustine Mooring Fails, City says they'll Pay.

To most cruisers St. Augustine is a stop on the way down the ICW, not a place to stay a while. We no longer stop in St. Augustine. There are other anchorages north and south of the town. They will not miss the few bucks we used to spend there. Plenty of tourist dollars from land based folks. I think we're in the minority as quite a few cruisers do take moorings in St. Augustine. Many new cruisers seem to prefer iffy moorings to their own ground tackle.
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Old 09-07-2014, 14:22   #68
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Re: St Augustine Mooring Fails, city says they'll pay.

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Originally Posted by S/V Alchemy View Post
I have discussed Floridian idiocy regarding boaters privately with other aspiring cruisers. Do you think it would do much good if they knew how many people were crossing it off the "must visit one day in my boat" list?

Vote with your keel.
As some one who has lived and been boating in Florida for well over fifty years my response, as well as a lot of other Floridians response, is don't let the door hit you in the buttissmo when you leave.

The biggest reason for mooring fields is because there are too many boats. During the season the Boot Key field is completely full with a waiting list and not really enough space for folks paying to anchor, less yet those anchoring with out paying.

Trying to find a place to anchor in Miami, Ft. Lauderdale, and popular places on the West Coast is a fools errand. There is simply more demand than supply of places to anchor in the crowded areas of Florida.
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Old 09-07-2014, 15:05   #69
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Re: St Augustine Mooring Fails, City says they'll Pay.

This thread is really covering two different topics: the worth of mooring fields in Florida at all, and (b) the construction of the moorings used in the mooring field.

We are in St.Augustine for the Hurricane season because its a fairly protected area in Florida and we really didn't want to spend a lot of time heading north just to come back south. I can't think of another area, besides maybe the St. Johns river going through Jacksonville, that is a suitable location for spending hurricane season in Florida. I suppose the Sabastian river would be more suitable because of the lack of fetch but we would have to remove all those marinas to anchor, or pay for a slip.

It is my understanding that boats that were here long term before the STA mooring field often dragged anchor because it never really has a chance to set because of the swift and 180 degree reversing currents.

Here is a fact: The land under the water is owned by all the residents of the state of florida and we pay our government to manage those lands (scoundrels they may be, we elect them and its not like people line up to do the job). We pay much much less overall tax here in Florida than I did back in VA, where we paid personal property tax, income tax, AND sales tax. Florida has to get income from somewhere, would you rather they levy a personal property tax on your boats, like the exorbitant North Carolina tax? If they really wanted to control the boat population, this is what they would do. Its going to happen eventually.

After-all, someone has to pay for Obamacare, Illegal Aliens, environmental enforcement, anchor studies, and guns. Am I missing one?
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Old 09-07-2014, 15:38   #70
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Re: St Augustine Mooring Fails, City says they'll Pay.

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SNIP

After-all, someone has to pay for Obamacare, Illegal Aliens, environmental enforcement, anchor studies, and guns. Am I missing one?
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Old 09-07-2014, 15:43   #71
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Re: St Augustine Mooring Fails, City says they'll Pay.

"Here is a fact: The land under the water is owned by all the residents of the state of florida "
DA! Tovarich! Da!

Y'all might have to discuss that with the State of Florida, though. They might think that land belongs to the State, not the People. The two aren't the same, y'know.

Kinda like the reason why a public park or beach has to be closed at night, so the dirt and sand can get their beauty sleep.
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Old 09-07-2014, 16:20   #72
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Re: St Augustine Mooring Fails, City says they'll Pay.

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"Here is a fact: The land under the water is owned by all the residents of the state of florida "
DA! Tovarich! Da!

Y'all might have to discuss that with the State of Florida, though. They might think that land belongs to the State, not the People. The two aren't the same, y'know.

Kinda like the reason why a public park or beach has to be closed at night, so the dirt and sand can get their beauty sleep.
That is true, Florida is a democracy not a republic.
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Old 09-07-2014, 16:39   #73
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Re: St Augustine Mooring Fails, City says they'll Pay.

There are places in Florida where you can do all of the following:
  1. Tie up your dinghy free to a City maintained, relatively secure dock
  2. Be within a block or two of efficient Public Transportation
  3. Anchor within short rowing distance of said dock
  4. Anchor with enough room for safety and privacy
  5. Be near basic shopping
  6. Get free pumpout
  7. Be near entertainment/beach
Several of these places actually welcome you. Make you feel right at home. Places where you could anchor and work on shore, with very little problem. It can be done, and these towns should be the examples.

The free dinghy dock is a cash cow. It can be situated on or next to the fuel dock. Tie up for free....but. They know you'll buy your ice there, it's the closest ice to the boat. They know you'll buy your valvetech no ethanol fuel jacked up sky high there. They know that's where you'll remember the additive and the head treatment, etc.. The towns are happy you will buying groceries and meals out and spending money. You represent growth for which they don't have to add a sewer or water service or electrical service or maintain a street. It is an economic no brainer.

Problem is, it's not at all about the economics. It is purely about using backdoor methods to tell people where they can not anchor. Our right to the water is so old and basic, that they can't attack it head on, no matter how much money they throw at it. They don't have to make anchoring illegal, if they can make it impossible, and that is being done.

Example; Boot Key Harbor is the most perfect natural boat harbor in the Keys, lots of boats have ridden lots of storms out safely there, in the old anchorage. In the winter season, the anchorage was packed full, and now the mooring balls are full all winter. In summer, the mooring balls are much less occupied. Well, hurricanes come in the summer, when there was plenty of room in the inner harbor. Good holding and protection for all. Now, the entire inner harbor is taken up by the balls, the anchorage is out near the bridge and in front of Burdine's. The holding is not nearly as good, the protection is far less, and there is no room for big storm scopes, period. Boot Key harbor has effectively been removed as a storm option for all but a handful of boats.

No ancient laws had to be challenged, no legislation had to be pushed through, a simple Edict, a Proclamation by the FWC, and voila! a pilot program and no anchoring.

Pay instead of do it for free, leave when a storm comes (when you need it most), subject yourself to rules and regulations that never existed but you are now sheepishly obliged to sign up for, and be told it is a good thing. Yeah, this is Government doing me a favor, sure it is, right, I am really lucky.

Plenty more examples of good and bad, but here's a hint; the mooring fields are all in places that believed they had "problems" with boaters. If the program is extended or made permanent, they will displace anchorages where ever a handful of waterfront property owners say so, and anchorages and remote anchorages will become synonymous.

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Old 09-07-2014, 17:21   #74
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Old 09-07-2014, 18:40   #75
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Re: St Augustine Mooring Fails, City says they'll Pay.

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That is true, Florida is a democracy not a republic.
really
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