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Old 05-07-2014, 07:47   #31
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Re: St Augustine Mooring Fails, city says they'll pay.

The problem is for those of us that live here. We can pay what $12-15 a foot for a marina or get a good deal on unsafe moorings. Most us would pay more if the city was willing to upgrade the mooring or allow us to purchase the moorings solely for our personal lifetime use after which it would revert back to the city.

I really didn't intend this to be a debate over mooring fields. Just the specific unsafe conditions of this field. The guy out in CA has an interesting point, this is exactly what happened to a mooring field installed in Naples. It was literally just taking up space and keeping out anchorers as the city told people the moorings were not maintained and unsafe to use.
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Old 05-07-2014, 09:18   #32
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Re: St Augustine Mooring Fails, city says they'll pay.

When I was in the Annapolis mooring field last they were doing maintenance. I was impressed by their gear and their process for maintaining it. I'm on a permanent mooring that I built and set, so I have a handle on what I want holding my boat to the bottom, like through recent hurricane Arthur. One of many storms my boat has ridden out on her mooring. A friend called to say he was on the 200 mile drive to Charleston to check on his Westsail, and I didn't even know the storms path! I guess I was distracted with the hay marathon this high pressure system started at the farm, but I have loads of confidence once I strip all the canvas and otherwise prep the boat for storm season while I'm 400 miles inland.

I think Annapolis has helicals, and they use their crane to pull the chain taught, and put a diver below to swap shackles or chain if need be. They did NOT do it in 5 minutes there... I was lusting after their rig and admiring the process, as someone who maintains their barnacle encrusted mooring with a PVC dink. I set it with an 8 x 10 floating dock with the dink as tug. It is a very simple, but satisfying process.

Boatguy30, I hear your frustration, being that you are a local and perhaps that real estate was primetime anchorage location. I'll just go around the bend when I'm in St Aug if weather imminent, but I can relate to some extent our situation in Beaufort with all kinds of trash moorings in Taylor Creek. The location is prime, even though there are alternatives. I watched everyone pile into Taylor Creek some years ago for a tropical storm but I went back to Town creek, where I'd never been, and had the place to myself. Several boats in Taylor washed up. I really wish Beaufort would put in a mooring field to the standards of Annapolis. I used to spend more time there but pretty much exclusively anchor at Cape Lookout now, which isn't exactly around the bend....but personal preference.

I really don't trust moorings as it is, having seen some pretty hokie stuff underneath a fancy ball. Ignorance is bliss for many but it would make me anxious to tie up to a St Augustine ball in a gale. Not so much because of a mysterious pin but rather the lack of chain. Is this a mooring field that is most convenient to the old city? I've never been inshore there, I really want to visit next time south. Too far from Gulf stream for a N bound trip.
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Old 05-07-2014, 10:04   #33
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Re: St Augustine Mooring Fails, city says they'll pay.

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Originally Posted by AnchorageGuy View Post
These discussions always fascinate me, especially when they turn to comments about free anchorages becoming extinct and governments shutting them down. Nothing is farther from the truth and we can attest first hand.

SNIP
There are a huge number of places to anchor free in Florida. There are also some govt run mooring fields which limit anchoring. But while these mooring fields are few and far between they are all located at popular places to keep a boat.

This is why I posted the supply and demand post. As an example I have cruised to places like Boca Grande and the Marquesas and never had any problem finding a place to anchor in ten to twelve feet of water with good holding and if the wind shifted I could easily find a spot in the lee of the land to anchor. Another issue is what I will call access to land. Boot Key is a good example of a place where there is no dock to tie your dinghy up even if you find a place to anchor; you have to pay a marina or buy food/drinks at a bar.

Another big issue is what I will call the seasonal nature of the demand. At Boot Key the mooring field is full during the season and boats have to get on a list to get a ball. But in the summer it is normally around one third full. Just as an aside A couple of weeks ago I was told I would have move from the ball I was on at Boot Key to a different ball. Just before that a boat came around and pressure cleaned the lines on the ball and inspected them. Red tags were put on the balls that needed to be maintained and boats on those balls were required to move.

Not saying I am a fan of mooring fields, just that they may not be a s bad as some folks think.
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Old 05-07-2014, 11:17   #34
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Re: St Augustine Mooring Fails, city says they'll pay.

Yesterday, I had a first hand conversation with an official at the St. Augustine Municipal Marina about this issue. He indicated that the shackle pin between the mooring tackle and the helix had come out. The mooring assembly is attached to the helix with a 7/8" pin and nut.

There is nothing wrong with the actual mooring tackle... its not like the line snapped... and there does not appear to be any elongation or other type of damage to the shackle itself. In fact, the complete mooring assembly was being put back into place with a new pin. I guess if its being tested that will delay that.

Also, its not like the St. Augustine had custom moorings designed, so any claim as to their suitability or strength lay with the manufacturer's engineering department.

I agree that they should start removing moorings from Salt Run, I have been over there, as there are only a dozen or so boats on about 40 or 50 moorings.

As far as mooring fields go... I have a mostly positive outlook on them when reasonably priced. The cost for us to stay here for a month is only $360. This is not "break the bank" category. Also, there IS room for a 1/2 dozen boats just north of the mooring field and plenty of space south of the mooring fields (not in salt run). Being that occupancy is generally low and dock space generally at a premium, I see St. Augustine expanding out dock space well before adding any more mooring balls. So, if you still don't want to pay $360 for a mooring that is inspected several times a year, and get access to clean bathrooms, showers we don't have to clean, free wi-fi, and an air conditioned lounge, there are still anchoring options.
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Old 05-07-2014, 13:20   #35
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Re: St Augustine Mooring Fails, city says they'll pay.

I believe there are close to 100 moorings in salt run and about 20 boats.

rope is not suitable for permanent mooring tackle PERIOD
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Old 05-07-2014, 13:32   #36
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Re: St Augustine Mooring Fails, city says they'll pay.

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I believe there are close to 100 moorings in salt run and about 20 boats.

rope is not suitable for permanent mooring tackle PERIOD
I disagree. We own several private moorings, one of which is made of rope and a 50 gallon drum with concrete. It has never been changed for 30 - 35 years and its in fine shape. The growth on the line protects it from abrasions and so forth. Its a disgusting mess of sealife.

So is rope not a suitable anchor tackle either?
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Old 05-07-2014, 14:26   #37
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Re: St Augustine Mooring Fails, city says they'll pay.

You have no clue. What do you have tethered to that drum a Clorox bottle. I appreciate the educated comments on this boat that have real experience with mooring.

but hey, "it's not like the rope snapped"

Next time it will.
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Old 05-07-2014, 16:28   #38
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Re: St Augustine Mooring Fails, city says they'll pay.

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Originally Posted by zboss View Post
I disagree. We own several private moorings, one of which is made of rope and a 50 gallon drum with concrete. It has never been changed for 30 - 35 years and its in fine shape. The growth on the line protects it from abrasions and so forth. Its a disgusting mess of sealife.

So is rope not a suitable anchor tackle either?

An anchor rode is regularly hauled, often every day, and inspected. Mooring tackle is left unseen and unchecked for long periods. Rope is not reliable enough in the opinion of most.


The Fields were installed purely to displace anchorages. They will fall into disrepair. The municipalities will be unable financially to repair and maintain them (or claim so). They will also claim not to have the funds to remove them. The moorings will be empty and unusable due to their lack of dependability, yet they will remain to foul the bottom and continue to displace the anchorage. Now there are no boats anchored or moored in front of the mansions, objective reached semi-permanently.

This looked like the plan from the beginning. Don't make anchoring illegal, just make it impossible. Done.

Boaters won't be able to simply remove them, because of the City's ownership and the unending pretend "legal proceedings".

Officials save face, and the goal is accomplished.

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Old 05-07-2014, 16:55   #39
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Re: St Augustine Mooring Fails, city says they'll pay.

zboss, there's a reason that concrete moorings are banned in many municipal anchorages. Simply put, concrete is mostly water, no matter if it is submerged or on land. Which makes a concrete block not a lot denser than the water it is in, and unless you've got a BIG block and a SMALL boat, it will move very easily compared to a simple mushroom anchor, or railway wheels (steel) or other alternatives.

A drum of concrete and some rope may be working for you--but that just means you don't have or need much of a mooring. I'm betting your Cabo isn't sitting on that one.
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Old 05-07-2014, 17:15   #40
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Re: St Augustine Mooring Fails, city says they'll pay.

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zboss, there's a reason that concrete moorings are banned in many municipal anchorages. Simply put, concrete is mostly water, no matter if it is submerged or on land. Which makes a concrete block not a lot denser than the water it is in, and unless you've got a BIG block and a SMALL boat, it will move very easily compared to a simple mushroom anchor, or railway wheels (steel) or other alternatives.

A drum of concrete and some rope may be working for you--but that just means you don't have or need much of a mooring. I'm betting your Cabo isn't sitting on that one.
I'm quite qualified to discuss this topic, the rope mooring is our primary mooring when home. However, I was not suggesting you run out and use a concrete mooring, we just happen to have one because it came with the house. And no, its not a clorox bottle. We have a normal taylor made ball on the end, which we have to place regularly due to some other idiots that think our private property belongs to them. This mooring has served us well through 30ish years of hurricanes and tropical storms.

The chain moorings in our other two helix moorings have caused us more frustration than our simple mooring by far. Pins do come loose. Mooring balls get run over by idiots and they sink. Other morons think they need to bring the ball up onto their deck, cause they don't get why there is no painter, which causes the settled chain to get pulled out and yank on the helix, etc...

There is a long history of using rope as mooring and I think you'll see more of it as time goes by... mooring chain gets stolen, rubs on the ocean floor and causes more damage. As long as it gets inspected, then there should not be an issue.

We have two other moorings that use helix screws.

Besides... is this a discussion on the merits of using rope vs. using chain or merits of a mooring system as all? Would you be any happier if the moorings were all chain? No, you would not because you don't see a merits of a mooring system at all.

I would add that the marina has come to an agreement with the owner, who is not throwing a fit, and doing the right thing.
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Old 05-07-2014, 17:26   #41
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Re: St Augustine Mooring Fails, city says they'll pay.

Ah, so you use the concrete mooring as a Trojan horse, to ensnare the callous trespassers and wreck them.

Hey, that works for me.

Although, if you put a rate card on the mooring ball along with a paypal address, and just charged them by the foot and the night, that could work too.(G)
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Old 05-07-2014, 18:21   #42
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Re: St Augustine Mooring Fails, city says they'll pay.

2 likely storm scenarios

3 strand rope below the waterline is highly loaded underwater for a few hours which cause the rope to twist and lay and unlay. Barnacles on the rode are worked into the lay in the action and it quickly cuts itself to bits.

Scenario 2: the Morgan 50 to weather of you blows down on you. Let's say his chafe gear failed mooring held fine. Turns out his keel is real torn up with rough glass from running aground. His boats keel grazes your straining rope tackle on it's way to the seawall. At least you'll have the Morgan as padding against the seawall.

BTW: Sam told me 6 weeks ago the moorings had chain from the anchor to the swivel just below the bouy. Makes you confident he has a handle on things.......
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Old 05-07-2014, 19:01   #43
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Re: St Augustine Mooring Fails, city says they'll pay.

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Originally Posted by Custom30 View Post
An anchor rode is regularly hauled, often every day, and inspected. Mooring tackle is left unseen and unchecked for long periods. Rope is not reliable enough in the opinion of most.


The Fields were installed purely to displace anchorages. They will fall into disrepair. The municipalities will be unable financially to repair and maintain them (or claim so). They will also claim not to have the funds to remove them. The moorings will be empty and unusable due to their lack of dependability, yet they will remain to foul the bottom and continue to displace the anchorage. Now there are no boats anchored or moored in front of the mansions, objective reached semi-permanently.

This looked like the plan from the beginning. Don't make anchoring illegal, just make it impossible. Done.

Boaters won't be able to simply remove them, because of the City's ownership and the unending pretend "legal proceedings".

Officials save face, and the goal is accomplished.

'

The agreement with the state is they either operate the mooring field or they take it out. If it falls to a state of disrepair they lose the lease and have to remove it.
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Old 05-07-2014, 22:44   #44
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Re: St Augustine Mooring Fails, city says they'll pay.

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The agreement with the state is they either operate the mooring field or they take it out. If it falls to a state of disrepair they lose the lease and have to remove it.
I understand that is the agreement.

It will however take the appropriation of additional funding for it to happen in reality. That is where the process can be bogged down by interests with political clout.

Unless appropriation was made up front, or insurance bought to fund future removal, words on paper will not get anything off of the bottom. The mooring fields will join a long list of projects approved but "awaiting funding".

'
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Old 06-07-2014, 05:38   #45
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Re: St Augustine Mooring Fails, city says they'll pay.

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I understand that is the agreement.

It will however take the appropriation of additional funding for it to happen in reality. That is where the process can be bogged down by interests with political clout.

Unless appropriation was made up front, or insurance bought to fund future removal, words on paper will not get anything off of the bottom. The mooring fields will join a long list of projects approved but "awaiting funding".

'
Since we haven't witnessed a complete failure yet, let's wait to see what happens. I decided long ago to not guess what government might or might not do, especially in situations that have never happened. FWC could come in, remove it, and bill the city. There are departments of government that are interested in maintaining the navigable waters.

I don't believe any of them are running a positive cash flow, regardless of what the proponents initially promised.
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