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Old 04-07-2014, 06:24   #16
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Re: St Augustine Mooring Fails, city says they'll pay.

Legally speaking a storm is 55kts of wind. So if it was less than that it would give you more leverage in a damage claim.
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Old 04-07-2014, 10:11   #17
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Re: St Augustine Mooring Fails, city says they'll pay.

"Legally speaking a storm is 55kts of wind."
No source, no venue, no jurisdiction? Legally speaking you've got nothing, unless you can put that in context.
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Old 04-07-2014, 10:56   #18
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Re: St Augustine Mooring Fails, city says they'll pay.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boatguy30 View Post
SNIP

It was my understanding the city requires us to carry liability insurance in case their mooring fail, they aren't liable for the damage we do as we smash ashore.

Troubling in all respects.
Not sure how St. Augustine works but at Boot Key the contract you sign is something like eight pages long and way too dry and boring for most folks to read. But in a fit of madness I wound up reading mine. If you have a spare afternoon it might be worth the effort.

A couple of weeks ago on the cruisers net at Boot Key a city marina employee got on the radio and said they were going to do some work on some of the balls that had recently been inspected. The employee went on to say the affected boats should start up their engines, check the bottom to make sure the growth on the prop had not rendered it unable to move the boat, and that the rudder was able to function with growth on it. If a boat was unable to move to a new ball under its' own power the owner would need to get a tow to the new ball. Some of the boats in the harbor have not moved in over a year.

Just because the contract with the marina says you need to have a seaworthy boat that has insurance does not mean that is the case in reality.
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Old 04-07-2014, 11:16   #19
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Re: St Augustine Mooring Fails, city says they'll pay.

"way too dry and boring for most folks to read."

In some states they call those adhesion contracts and the courts will not enforce them, because there has been no "negotiation" and that means there was no contracting going on.

But in Florida, I guess the big argument is over whether they included those kind of contracts on the FCATs. (G)
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Old 04-07-2014, 11:32   #20
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Re: St Augustine Mooring Fails, city says they'll pay.

I thought the boat was in the process of being STOLEN. Am I addressing the wrong boat?

Dot and John
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Old 04-07-2014, 11:41   #21
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Re: St Augustine Mooring Fails, city says they'll pay.

Wrong boat. I'm actually looking right at the stolen boat now... She's two moorings behind ours and looking in fine shape.


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Old 04-07-2014, 12:01   #22
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Re: St Augustine Mooring Fails, city says they'll pay.

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Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
"way too dry and boring for most folks to read."

In some states they call those adhesion contracts and the courts will not enforce them, because there has been no "negotiation" and that means there was no contracting going on.

But in Florida, I guess the big argument is over whether they included those kind of contracts on the FCATs. (G)
Back in the day they called them 'yellow dog' contracts because only a yellow dog would sign one.

There are lots of reasons to think the contracts are imperfect.

But my point was more along the lines of a due process argument. Why should some folks in a mooring field be allowed in when the contract (adhesion or not) requires insurance and they do not have insurance. If there was strict enforcement of the insurance requirement a significant number of year round live aboards would need to get insurance or move.
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Old 04-07-2014, 12:16   #23
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Re: St Augustine Mooring Fails, city says they'll pay.

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Boatguy,
Your concerns are legitimate and real. We are seeing a rapidly changing scenario for cruising sailors not only in the US but outside the country as well. If future sailors want to continue to have opportunities to pursue their lifestyle, they must understand that they have more to gain working with local authorities to improve conditions than to create a barrier which only will allow the status quo to deteriorate. These people are civil servants with little or no knowledge of things, nautical ,many of us take for granted. By being overtly adversarial, you will close the door to positive change and create antagonism. A positive, proactive course will benefit all. Good luck and good sailing.
That's a highly commendable thought.

Unfortunately, it doesn't work in real life.

The real-world scenario is this:

Free anchorages, whether abused by derelicts or not, are rapidly disappearing. At least from everything that's been written about the situation in Florida, it appears to me that there is a pretty large consensus that it is due, primarily, if not entirely, to landowners with penchant for power, arrogance and stupidity. Power 'cuz they have the $$s to sway local and state govts. Arrogance 'cuz the few of them affect a lot more folks than they can see off their screened in sunporch (oxymoron, eh?). And stupidity 'cuz they bought a house on the water and didn't expect to see boats! Next thing you know they'll be moving next to airports and complaining about the noise.

Undersized mooring tackle, that are not maintained, but are MANDATED for use because the anchorages were completely eliminated by the installation of those mooring fields is a horrible misuse of public funds and dangerous for boaters. Being forced to move when a storm comes is so backasswards to every concept of proper seamanship, safety and responsibility.

While the fields in the northeast seem to have a better reputation than most of those down south, the basic concept of "paving over good anchorages" is abhorrent to me.

And local governments are pretty crude when it comes to future budgeting. They put 'em in based on gross miscalculations of potential income, and then leave them to rot all the while insisting that skippers use their inferior and often dangerous equipment.

Eventually, all that crap will simply fall into the sea, the local govts won't have the money to remove them, they will become hazards to navigation and everybody loses.

Maybe it's just time to start pulling them up and dumping on the lawn in front of City Hall.

With BIG stickers on 'em: "UNSAFE AT ANY SPEED!"
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Old 04-07-2014, 13:07   #24
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Re: St Augustine Mooring Fails, city says they'll pay.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stu Jackson View Post
SNIP
The real-world scenario is this:

Free anchorages, whether abused by derelicts or not, are rapidly disappearing.

SNIP
Econ 101

The law of supply and demand.

The supply of free anchorages is basically stable. There may have been a small number of places where anchorages have had limits imposed, but there are still lots of free places to anchor in Florida.

Problem is the demand for these anchorages has increased greatly. I can remember back in the 1950s when my Dad first moved to Florida sailing in Biscayne Bay and the Keys and seldom seeing another boat. That is no longer the case.

If supply remains constant and demand increases the law of supply and demand tells us the price will increase.

Not saying some land owners are not working to limit anchoring. But just as there has been an explosion in the number of boats there has also been an explosion in the number of land owners. And just as the supply of anchorages is limited so is the supply of land for land owners limited.

The law of supply and demand.

Learn it.

Know it.

Live it.
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Old 04-07-2014, 20:53   #25
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Re: St Augustine Mooring Fails, city says they'll pay.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
"Legally speaking a storm is 55kts of wind."
No source, no venue, no jurisdiction? Legally speaking you've got nothing, unless you can put that in context.
Try looking in Bowditch, or any other modern weather source. Although you are right, I said 55 knots and it should be 55 mph which is 48 knots.
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Old 05-07-2014, 05:50   #26
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Re: St Augustine Mooring Fails, city says they'll pay.

The Beaufort Wind Scale is only one of the factors used to define a “storm”*, for insurance purposes.
* Storm = A wind of force 10 on the Beaufort scale (48-55 knots or 88-102 km/h).

For instance, in the UK:
“ ... The Financial Ombudsman Service has stated that if the policy terms fail to provide a definition of Storm (and most of them don’t) they would consider their approach to storm conditions on the basis of their past experience and would reflect upon the factors that need to be present for a claim to be successful, which are that a storm must involve violent winds and would generally be accompanied by rain, hail or snow.
It is not enough for there to merely be heavy rain and, similarly, high winds are not sufficient to indicate that there has been a storm. ...”


See ➥ buildings insurance: storm damage

And ➥ http://www.cila.co.uk/files/Weather%20to%20claim.pdf
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Old 05-07-2014, 07:04   #27
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Re: St Augustine Mooring Fails, city says they'll pay.

Supply and demand has little effect when the heavy hand of government intervention is felt in our local waters.

Also, a tropical storm winds start at 37 miles per hour. I would guess that is the VERY low bar the city would want to use in any lawsuit.
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Old 05-07-2014, 07:16   #28
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Re: St Augustine Mooring Fails, city says they'll pay.

For anyone that happens to be in St Augustine of plans to use the mooring field in the near future:

Hall Spars has agreed to load test the tackle from mooring SRNE17. I spoke with Dave at the marina on Thursday and he told me the city plans to reset this 5 year old rope tackle!

IMPORTANT BIT:

Call Sam at the marina Monday morning and request the old tackle be turned over to me for shipping to Hall Spars. I'd be happy to have the city send it themselves if they're concerned about tampering or whatever as long as I can verify it was the tackle just removed from service.

Send me a PM with any questions.
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Old 05-07-2014, 07:18   #29
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Re: St Augustine Mooring Fails, city says they'll pay.

These discussions always fascinate me, especially when they turn to comments about free anchorages becoming extinct and governments shutting them down. Nothing is farther from the truth and we can attest first hand. We have spent decades along the U.S. coast anchoring as much as possible. We are researching our 4th anchorage guide, this one covering the Gulf coast, and can say that we find unlimited numbers of fantastic anchorages where no one bothers you or hassles you in any way. The problem areas, mostly in Florida, are actually very few and have been a problem for more than 10 years. We avoid those because there is another place to anchor just around the bend. In the few instances we decided to use the mooring fields, like Boot Key Harbor for instance, it's because we want to be there and take advantage of the amenities the moorings have to offer. So the cruising world as we know it is not coming to an end and we will not have to go for ONLY paid dockage or moorings in our lifetime. Much of this has been blown way out of proportion. Keep cruising and have fun. The options are still endless.
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Old 05-07-2014, 07:43   #30
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Re: St Augustine Mooring Fails, city says they'll pay.

In 8 1/2 years of living aboard and cruising full-time we have used almost every mooring field in Florida at some point. We almost never use a marina dock, always anchor. We stopped using mooring fields 3 years ago and will never do so again! At three mooring fields we personally watched moorings fail (two in 5-10 mph winds!!). At all but one other mooring field we heard of failures from other cruisers.

We spent 5 winters on mooring in Boot Key Harbor because we wanted to be there. The moorings were new and originally well inspected for the first few years.

As AnchorageGuy said there are lots of places to anchor in Florida, both coasts. We are on the west coast of southwest Florida and love it. If everyone would just stop using the moorings like us the cities would be forced to remove them!

If you want to use a mooring, fine but don't think it is safe or safer than using your own ground tackle because it is NOT!!
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