Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 19-12-2008, 00:15   #16
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 96
I just replaced my lifelines with Amsteel. My old vinyl coated lines were dripping rust and done.

What prompted me to go synthetic was a hard look at my old lifelines. I had had two failures. On one occasion, a ring had come out of a clevis pin and guest undid the gate and dropped the whole thing overboard. On another occasion a pelican hook came unscrewed from a stud. Having a look down a lifeline there a multitude of failure points.

With the new lines, I have intimate knowledge of every splice and each lashing. I'm not worried about hidden corrosion and I'm able to monitor chafe.

I used eye to eye fittings and pelican hooks from CS Johnson and opted for lashings over their expensive turnbuckles. Total budget was about C$500 with the fittings. When I replace the lines next it will be < $200 since the fittings will be reused. Long term I expect it will be cheaper than stainless, and I have more confidence in it.

It is probably a good alternative for someone who is doing the work themselves.
__________________

__________________
waterdog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-12-2008, 08:26   #17
Registered User
 
Jmolan's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Mexico/Alaska/Oregon
Boat: 34' Searunner Tri
Posts: 712
Hardware

I have some small deadeyes I am going to try out from Colligo. I plan to use it for my steering when I replace the wire with Dux. Made just for lifelines and very smal boat standing rigging, will take up to a 5mm I believe. This is kinda a lousy shot as I was mostly photographing my main rigging, but you can see the deadeyes for comparison.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	PC070262.jpg
Views:	569
Size:	503.5 KB
ID:	6348  
__________________

__________________
Jmolan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-12-2008, 18:16   #18
cruiser

Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,167
Crevice corrosion eats stainless under plastic coatings. With 1/4 inch 1X19 you don't need coatings, and can see the condition of the wire at all times.
Brent
__________________
Brent Swain is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-01-2010, 11:21   #19
Registered User
 
sailingsolution's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: CHESAPEAKE BAY AREA
Posts: 5
Send a message via Skype™ to sailingsolution
LIFLELINES RESOLVED

Uncoated 1x19 has all the benefits you'll ever need, racing or cruising. It's uncoated so you can see the progression of its life. It's made out of high quality 316 marine grade stainless. 304 architectural grade which rusts in a marine enviroment, has to be used with 7x7 (for coated lifelines) or 7x19 (uncoated for wire hal's, runners, or any other dinosaur boat applications, but PLEASE NOT FOR LIFELINES, OUCH!!!) for flexibility. It has higher breaking strength and very little stretch, no meat hooks, and is very cost effective considering the life and maintenance of this material. Additionally u.v. and stretch is not an issue like with spectra or vinyl coated 7x7. Just rinse it off once in a while and keep fresh tape on your cotter pins or ring dings. If you use anything but 1x19 marine grade, your putting your money in the wrong place and quite possibly your safety at risk.

THE END
__________________
sailingsolution is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-01-2010, 14:21   #20
Registered User
 
Jmolan's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Mexico/Alaska/Oregon
Boat: 34' Searunner Tri
Posts: 712
Quote:
Originally Posted by swagman View Post
Hi Connemara,
I've no practical experience but you also asked for views - and in my opinion whilst the high tech rope my be low chafe, I find it tough to believe its going to come close to the anti chafe properties of wire.
Until such time as offshore racing regs determine sprectra is good for lifelines - I'll be sticking with wire.
Cheers
JOHN
Dyneema® fiber approved by ISAF council for use in sailing lifelines

Urmond,NL,07-Dec-2009


Dyneema® fiber allows for greater safety and improves performance compared to traditional steel wire

During the annual ISAF (International Sailing Federation) conference in Busan, Korea, Dyneema® fiber was approved by the ISAF council to be used as a material for sailing lifelines, meeting rigorous standards yet increasing safety performance. The light weight and stronger lifelines with Dyneema® fiber are a technical advancement in yachting world. The recent ISAF approval merely expands the permitted use of Dyneema® fiber in all other races and classes. Its use in the Melges 24 and Melges 32 classes for the past few years have already proven its effectiveness in these highly-competitive classes. Dyneema® fiber contributes to lighter, stronger and safer lifelines which are an important safety and performance feature on offshore and inshore sailing boats.

Bruno Finzi, Chairman of ORC (Offshore Racing Congress) and a member of the ISAF Committee, said: “I am happy to help in getting this measure passed. The ORC supports any such technical innovation that improves offshore sailing in both performance and safety.”

Marc Guillemot, skipper of the Safran race boat during the recent Vendée Globe race, said: “We used the lifelines during the last Vendée Globe for 25,000 miles. Lifelines made with Dyneema® fiber were very light and strong and their performance lasted in time.”

the link for the press release.
DSM Dyneema - Press Release - Dyneema® fiber approved by ISAF council for use in sailing lifelines

Brion Toss Brion Toss Yacht Riggers, Sailboat Rigging recently told me he will not rig wire life lines anymore. If someone insists on wire, he sends them to another rigger. Mentioned something along the line of "wire can hide problems, rope shows any and all signs of wear"

I highlighted what the (very conservative) rules committee concurred about Dyneema Life lines. I know it seems hard to believe, but rope is safer than wire. A 1/4" wire is half (at the most) as strong as the same size Dyneema rope.
It never has been this way in our life, and that is why it seems so ass-backwards to say so.....But when you can do things with fiber, that always took steel to do the job before, things really get interesting and oh by the way........ WIRE IS DEAD...:-)
__________________
Jmolan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-01-2010, 12:38   #21
Registered User
 
sailingsolution's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: CHESAPEAKE BAY AREA
Posts: 5
Send a message via Skype™ to sailingsolution
synthetics

Synthetics are great! They have a real place in replacing halyards, runners, topping lifts, even sheets. However, there is alot more work to convert to synthetic lifelines than a few brummel splices (if you want to do it right). It will chafe, and it will stretch (especially if you use amsteel). You can cut spectra, vectran or dynex dux 75 with a nice pair of scissors, try cutting 3/16" 316 marine grade wire with scissors. The stanchion ferrules have to have a welded tube on the inside of the hole, then counter bored then rounded and polished (totally fair). Now you can put your brummel splice in (no thimble, so you can get it off) cow hitch to the forward pad eye of the pulpit. Pull it tight through the first stanchion mark on either side. Pull it back out a little bit and make a service of shrink tube, leather, or whatever you can come up with (mind your diameter the hole is only so big). Do this times all the stanchions on your boat and times all the courses. Oh, and do yourself a favor, spend the extra coin and use dynex dux 75. Don't forget to make the service long enough and leave enough throw for the material to stretch, whether you are terminating with a turnbuckle, lashing (now you can use a thimble) or one of those nice spectra lifeline adjusters. BAM! looks nice. Never mind gates, thats a whole other project, to do it right. Probably better for race boats.

Now, did that really cost less than a 1x19 316 marine grade stainless wire, which was measured and gauged by a pro (add as many gates as you can dream up, you just have to purachase the fittings) and then just laced through your stanchions regardless of fairness. Plus if you're really good to your synthetics and remove them every winter and wash them they will be on your boat for five years or so, max (before they become a safety issue). With 1x19 your looking at 10-15yrs. or more, just rinse it off after some salty sailing and put some fresh tape on those cotter pins or ring dings.

Look I know some of you are really happy to finally find a material that is easy to splice, stronger than stainless, and alot lighter. But this is a CRUISERS FORUM so do yourself a favor (all of you) and don't go mental over lifelines. Breaking strength is never an issue with any of these products even if you weigh 500lbs., the stanchion will pull out of the deck before anything else fails. As far as weight is concerned, let's be real, even if you are sailing a carbon/kevlar race boat this is barely an issue for winning regattas (especially if you weigh 500lbs.)

304 architectural grade 7x19 and 7x7 vinyl coat is dead, and should no longer be used on boats. 1x19 316 grade wire (the stuff your standing rig uses, even Brian Toss, where the loads are much greater) is maybe dying at best, but not dead yet. Don't always opt for cheaper, opt for your best bang for your buck. Quit making excuses, do it right, do it once, keep it simple and just go sailing damnit!

-S.S.
__________________
sailingsolution is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-01-2010, 15:54   #22
Registered User
 
Jmolan's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Mexico/Alaska/Oregon
Boat: 34' Searunner Tri
Posts: 712
My life line conversion did not take 25% of the work you are describing. I put it through stanchions with raw open holes, and I purposely did not soften the edges, just to get a read on how it would wear.
After two years I removed the ropes as I went into shipyard. They showed no wear. Just unlaced the lashings, and pull it all out. If I had to, I could pull the splice apart with my fingers, I have done this to shorten and resplice things.
One of the photos is one wire lifelines when I pulled it. What a mess.
It has proven to be easy to convert, tough and durable. And not even 10% of the work required in the previous post. This is the tools I needed along with 30 minutes to pull the old wire and insert new rope.
I understand how hard it is to believe this stuff works like it is claimed. There is more going on here than a new fangled rope. This is a great piece written in 2004 about new fangled ropes.

Brion Toss Yacht Riggers Fairleads Newsletter
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	IMGP0168.jpg
Views:	522
Size:	404.1 KB
ID:	12807   Click image for larger version

Name:	IMGP0171.jpg
Views:	282
Size:	434.1 KB
ID:	12808  

Click image for larger version

Name:	IMGP0162.jpg
Views:	294
Size:	427.8 KB
ID:	12809   Click image for larger version

Name:	IMGP0164.jpg
Views:	372
Size:	423.1 KB
ID:	12810  

__________________
Jmolan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-01-2010, 17:00   #23
Registered User
 
sailingsolution's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: CHESAPEAKE BAY AREA
Posts: 5
Send a message via Skype™ to sailingsolution
dear mr. trimaran

i'm not saying it can't be done. as a matter of fact yours look really nice. it seems like you have pretty straight courses. i'm guessing because there is not much curve from bow to stern like a mono hull. those wires look a mess, are they 1x19? just curious how long have they been on your boat, more than 15 years? it seems like you are pretty on top of those life lines, it's good to see someone who really looks after their boat.
__________________
sailingsolution is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-01-2010, 20:50   #24
cruiser

Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,167
Used boaters exchanges are awash in 1/4 inch 1x19. They can hardly give the stuff away. Most have at least one end on.
__________________
Brent Swain is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-01-2010, 05:54   #25
Registered User
 
Zanshin's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Caribbean
Boat: Jeanneau 57
Posts: 1,621
I would never trust my life to used fittings and 1x19 wire; there is a reason that they can hardly give the stuff away. I'd rather save money in other places than in safety lines and rigging.
__________________
Zanshin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2010, 15:33   #26
cruiser

Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,167
I always use solid top lifelines . Mine are 1 1/4 inch stainless boiler tubing. I use 1/4 inch 1x19 for the intermediate. I'l never go back to floppy wire or rope for top lifelines . No one who had proper solid top lifelines would consider going back to floppy ones.
Solid top lifelines support your stanchions top and bottom. There is zero chance of them breaking free form my bulwark by the weight of a human falling on them and the stanchions won't spear you.
As was pointed out , there is no way you will break ss 1/4 inch 1x19 , used or not, by falling on them, unless they are so corroded that it is clearly obvious.
__________________
Brent Swain is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2010, 16:21   #27
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Tampa Bay
Boat: Nor Sea 27'
Posts: 202
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jmolan View Post
..... WIRE IS DEAD...:-)
In light of the fact that I have commonly seen even vinyl coated lifelines last in excess of a decade here in central Florida. Even when they have been completely ignored. In light of the fact that I have never seen a piece of wire rigging fail under a load before a stanchion. In light of the fact that wire is still less expensive than high tech line. In light of the fact that some people would just rather use wire because it has served them well for a long time.
I have to say that declaring that "WIRE IS DEAD" is a little premature.

What do you think is going to happen? You just install the spectra and you never have to think about it again?
The truth is, it's going to have to be replaced, at a higher cost, as soon or sooner than wire lifelines. It's not going to make your stanchions any stronger and since the stanchions or their method of attachment to the boat are almost always the weak link in the system. It's not going to make anyone any safer.

But hey, I'm happy to go along with the latest fad. The profit margin is probably about the same.
__________________
WIKIJAR
knothead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2010, 16:39   #28
Vendor
 
witzgall's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Eastern Shore, MD
Boat: Camper Nicholson 44 Ketch
Posts: 1,775
Our lifeline, Amsteel, are over a year old now, and still look great. I think if I can get five years from them, then it was a good thing to do. After I did the first one to see how it worked, I used single wall heat shrink tubing to cover the line at each stanchion pass-thru, and over the entire splice at both ends. I did just a simple bury splice per Samson's guide.

They are attached by a shackle on one end, and Amsteel 1/8 lashings on the other.

Chris
__________________
witzgall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2010, 17:58   #29
Registered User
 
Jmolan's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Mexico/Alaska/Oregon
Boat: 34' Searunner Tri
Posts: 712
Quote:
Originally Posted by knothead View Post
.
I have to say that declaring that "WIRE IS DEAD" is a little premature.

What do you think is going to happen? You just install the spectra and you never have to think about it again?
The truth is, it's going to have to be replaced, at a higher cost, as soon or sooner than wire lifelines. It's not going to make your stanchions any stronger and since the stanchions or their method of attachment to the boat are almost always the weak link in the system. It's not going to make anyone any safer.

But hey, I'm happy to go along with the latest fad. The profit margin is probably about the same.
DEAD? Ahh.....I just say that to get peoples attention.... Kinda like standing on my head to get noticed.....

Of course you keep an eye on it, just like everything else. Replace at higher cost? There are no new swages to replace. Reuse the fittings. I think the price is pretty close depending on where you get it.
Safer? I can say it is stronger, about 2x wire strength, but you make a good point, it is not the weak link, no fault of the rope. Maybe more comfortable, more do it yourself friendly.
Just got a report from one of the forum members, he had some dyneema loops and lashings tested after 5 years exposure. They broke at 80% of original strength. He was in NZ and they have intense UV there.
Fad?....ah I learned about it in the Bearing Sea offshore trawling. We don't go for fads. It has replaced all the wire on our boat. From 1" wire at 800 ftms long, to all the deck machinery wires. Our whole fleet has. It is not a fad. I have no idea about profit margins, I did it to my boat out of "boat love"....
__________________
Jmolan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-04-2010, 09:42   #30
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Cruising the Caribbean
Boat: Morgan 461
Posts: 96
A question for those of you using lashings on one end of your [insert favorite synthetic rope here] lifelines:

What type of rope did you use for the lashings? What knot do you use to secure it?

Witzgall, you said you used 1/8" Amsteel. How did you secure the lashings? A knot wouldn't do the trick, as Amsteel is so slippery. Is there some magic splice I'm not privy to yet?
__________________

__________________
enovillo is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
lifelines

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Amsteel for Lifelines, and... witzgall Construction, Maintenance & Refit 30 15-05-2012 18:41
Lifelines Cal 43 Deck hardware: Rigging, Sails & Hoisting 9 24-01-2010 12:32
Cleaning Vinyl-Coated Lifelines galleyslave Construction, Maintenance & Refit 10 14-12-2009 18:36
Replacing Lifelines with Solid Rails off-the-grid Construction, Maintenance & Refit 20 06-11-2009 19:16
Lifelines orion1 Deck hardware: Rigging, Sails & Hoisting 27 11-05-2007 09:52



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 02:43.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.