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Old 20-08-2015, 17:06   #31
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Re: So your cruising and come across illegal immigrants/ refuges in distress, what do

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Sorry guys, wet foot dry foot only applies to Cubans. If your Haitian it's if your black you go back. What is right doesn't always apply.

You know, there are a lot of Black Cubans.
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Old 20-08-2015, 17:09   #32
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Re: So your cruising and come across illegal immigrants/ refuges in distress, what do

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You know, there are a lot of Black Cubans.


PS RK is a known trouble maker. He told me so himself.
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Old 20-08-2015, 17:19   #33
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Re: So your cruising and come across illegal immigrants/ refuges in distress, what do

This is a question I have pondered recently given I;m looking at doing some cruising in the Med. One the one hand I would hate to see people drown and on the other hand I would hate to put myself and my boat at risk. In this context I was pleased to read an article title "Migrants put sailors in difficult position" in the Yachting Monthly August 2015 issue (p4). Some key points that I took from the article include:
- Approaching a boat might encourage some or all or the migrants to attempt to board your boat, possibly more than your boat can safely carry and amongst the genuine immigrants are almost certainly a number of criminal people-traffickers who may not want you to give away your position and may even want to commandeer your boat;
- There are reports of small yachts being chased by migrant boats; and
- Some sailors who assisted migrants have been accused by the Greek coastguard of being involved in the transportation of migrants and 'they had a hard time to convince them otherwise'.

The two main points that I took are:
- The International Marine Organisation (IMO) dictates that seafarers should provide assistance to those in distress at sea, unless the assisting vessel is 'unable or... considers it unreasonable... to proceed to their assistance'; and
- The RYA's recommendation is that sailors should 'inform the appropriate search and rescue services of the position and situation and to stand clear, and note the reasons for not assisting in the log book'.
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Old 20-08-2015, 17:44   #34
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Re: So your cruising and come across illegal immigrants/ refuges in distress, what do

Basic humanity requires the rendering of assistance.

Legal immigration issues are a straw-man argument: You are not committing a crime by saving lives under any interpretation of any law, anywhere. Even where poorly though-out laws may be in effect, there are usually overriding "good samaritan" laws that would prevent you from being charged with a crime. What happens to the people you save, once you've rendered them to the competent authority, is not your concern or moral obligation. In any case, even if you were charged, no jury is going to convict you for saving people's lives.

Disease is also very much a non-issue. Most 1st world westerners have been immunized against the vast majority of communicable illnesses. You're not going to get a bacterial illness, even TB, from someone that you don't have at least saliva contact with as no bacterial illness is airborne. So you can remove that from the list of supposed issues as well.

However: Being overwhelmed by desperate people who have no concept of reciprocation and who would rather kill you than die themselves is a very legitimate concern. I've traveled quite a bit in the 3rd world, and I've been mobbed by desperate people when I was trying to help. It will forever change the manner of your assistance.

Myself, I would long-line tow a vessel full of immigrants to the nearest shore, and I would do that by passing my longest line, anchor rode if necessary, from my stern to them on a float made of life jackets and then moving away, maneuvering to draw the line and float across their boat. Were there any attempt to pull their vessel closer to mine using the tow line, I would make it clear that the line will be cut and they will be abandoned again. I would maintain a constant watch on the line and the boat throughout the tow, and I would cut them loose within swimming distance to the shore without coming to shore myself.

I would pass them as much food and water as I could actually spare.

I think that's the right way to approach this situation for anyone.
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Old 20-08-2015, 17:48   #35
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Re: So your cruising and come across illegal immigrants/ refuges in distress, what do

Latitude 38 - August 20, 2001

Around 6 pm on Sunday, two fishermen came alongside TLC - something not uncommon in the Sea of Cortez. Medd gave them some water. Then one of the guys came aboard and hit Medd in the face with a rock he'd brought along, and Medd lost consciousness. When he awoke, he found that his throat had been slit from ear to ear - with his own bread knife - cutting lots of tendons, and he had been left to die. As he drifted in and out of consciousness, TLC smashed into some rocks. Eventually, Medd was able to get to the beach and fire off a flare. Some fishermen saw the flare and made their way over to him. When they saw him, they got the Mexican Navy involved, and Bob was taken to the hospital in Santa Rosalia on Tuesday evening. The hospital had to twice use paddles to restart his heart. On August 14, the doctor declared it was Medd's 'new birthday'. We emphasize, the above facts are unconfirmed.
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Old 20-08-2015, 18:42   #36
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Re: So your cruising and come across illegal immigrants/ refuges in distress, what do

We forget that the original requirement to render assistance to any person found at sea in danger of being lost was based on fellow mariners being shipwrecked. It was the old "brotherhood (excuse the politically incorrect term) of the sea" where only fellow mariners were out there. Today's world is very different. I would think twice, maybe three times before taking anyone aboard.
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Old 21-08-2015, 05:39   #37
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Re: So your cruising and come across illegal immigrants/ refuges in distress, what do

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Originally Posted by Tellie View Post
PS RK is a known trouble maker. He told me so himself.
Never!!!!!!!😝
Hey at least I didn't ask " would you feel safer rendering assistance if you had a gun?" lol

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Old 21-08-2015, 06:37   #38
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Re: So your cruising and come across illegal immigrants/ refuges in distress, what do

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Originally Posted by mstrebe View Post
Basic humanity requires the rendering of assistance.

Legal immigration issues are a straw-man argument: You are not committing a crime by saving lives under any interpretation of any law, anywhere. Even where poorly though-out laws may be in effect, there are usually overriding "good samaritan" laws that would prevent you from being charged with a crime. What happens to the people you save, once you've rendered them to the competent authority, is not your concern or moral obligation. In any case, even if you were charged, no jury is going to convict you for saving people's lives.

Disease is also very much a non-issue. Most 1st world westerners have been immunized against the vast majority of communicable illnesses. You're not going to get a bacterial illness, even TB, from someone that you don't have at least saliva contact with as no bacterial illness is airborne. So you can remove that from the list of supposed issues as well.

However: Being overwhelmed by desperate people who have no concept of reciprocation and who would rather kill you than die themselves is a very legitimate concern. I've traveled quite a bit in the 3rd world, and I've been mobbed by desperate people when I was trying to help. It will forever change the manner of your assistance.

Myself, I would long-line tow a vessel full of immigrants to the nearest shore, and I would do that by passing my longest line, anchor rode if necessary, from my stern to them on a float made of life jackets and then moving away, maneuvering to draw the line and float across their boat. Were there any attempt to pull their vessel closer to mine using the tow line, I would make it clear that the line will be cut and they will be abandoned again. I would maintain a constant watch on the line and the boat throughout the tow, and I would cut them loose within swimming distance to the shore without coming to shore myself.

I would pass them as much food and water as I could actually spare.

I think that's the right way to approach this situation for anyone.
Good post, sums it up nicely. One thing though...it's unlikely, but the nature of the prize if you win this lottery prompts me to remind you that the plague bacteria has a form can be transmitted via the air. Also, Ebola has not retreated back to wherever it lives after the recent outbreaks in western Africa, and as steve0h pointed out, there are many other interesting ways to die via pathogen floating about out there.

Plague (Yersinia Pestis) Guide: Causes, Symptoms and Treatment Options

Here is an interesting article delving deeper into the crisis than lamestream media hysterics. The reasoning can also apply to other places in the world. No, I wouldn't go alongside a boatload of folks I didn't know......:

If you really want to help refugees, look beyond the Mediterranean ยป The Spectator
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Old 22-08-2015, 10:53   #39
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Re: So your cruising and come across illegal immigrants/ refuges in distress, what do

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Originally Posted by kentobin View Post
Latitude 38 - August 20, 2001

Around 6 pm on Sunday, two fishermen came alongside TLC - something not uncommon in the Sea of Cortez. Medd gave them some water. Then one of the guys came aboard and hit Medd in the face with a rock he'd brought along, and Medd lost consciousness. When he awoke, he found that his throat had been slit from ear to ear - with his own bread knife - cutting lots of tendons, and he had been left to die. As he drifted in and out of consciousness, TLC smashed into some rocks. Eventually, Medd was able to get to the beach and fire off a flare. Some fishermen saw the flare and made their way over to him. When they saw him, they got the Mexican Navy involved, and Bob was taken to the hospital in Santa Rosalia on Tuesday evening. The hospital had to twice use paddles to restart his heart. On August 14, the doctor declared it was Medd's 'new birthday'. We emphasize, the above facts are unconfirmed.

Kent,
Very interesting and frightening story. However, in the update, it was mentioned that his story became "curious" since he drove 14 hours from one hospital in Mexico to another and, later, did not seek medical help once he arrived in the US. However, after having your throat slit with the real prospect of imminent death, we, the reader, should not judge his behaviour too harshly since he very well could have been suffering from shock-- if not the incredible psychological trauma of the event. Is this an isolated event or a pattern that is developing in many formerly "safe" cruising areas in the Caribbean/Pacific? Should we dismiss this as an anomaly and get back to business as usual or must we re-question our cruising itineraries? These are questions I believe the prudent person must ask before undertaking any cruise. Good luck and safe sailing.
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Old 22-08-2015, 12:38   #40
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Re: So your cruising and come across illegal immigrants/ refuges in distress, what do

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Kent,
Very interesting and frightening story. However, in the update, it was mentioned that his story became "curious" since he drove 14 hours from one hospital in Mexico to another and, later, did not seek medical help once he arrived in the US. However, after having your throat slit with the real prospect of imminent death, we, the reader, should not judge his behaviour too harshly since he very well could have been suffering from shock-- if not the incredible psychological trauma of the event. Is this an isolated event or a pattern that is developing in many formerly "safe" cruising areas in the Caribbean/Pacific? Should we dismiss this as an anomaly and get back to business as usual or must we re-question our cruising itineraries? These are questions I believe the prudent person must ask before undertaking any cruise. Good luck and safe sailing.
This happened in 2001. It's important to watch the dates on Internet press releases.
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Old 22-08-2015, 13:48   #41
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Re: So your cruising and come across illegal immigrants/ refuges in distress, what do

You know, guys, this happened last year to CF'er Norna Biron in the Med. In that case, there were people in the water, and they ferried them by dinghy to the shore. Their account of it is somewhere in the CF archives. (Sorry, but I don't know how to find it, but maybe by looking for posts from Norna Biron.)

None of the "desperate" people misbehaved. Sort of leads one to wonder if some of us unnecessarily project our violence onto others...... maybe a bit over the top?

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Old 22-08-2015, 14:09   #42
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Re: So your cruising and come across illegal immigrants/ refuges in distress, what do

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...
Around 6 pm on Sunday, two fishermen came alongside TLC - something not uncommon in the Sea of Cortez...
... reminds me of the Mexican Pacific Coast Fishermen that pulled our sailboat off a sandbar 20 years ago, they wouldn't take the money I offered, finally talked them into taking a couple 6 packs of beer... sure glad they decided to risk helping the stupid gringos.
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Old 22-08-2015, 14:39   #43
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Re: So your cruising and come across illegal immigrants/ refuges in distress, what do

The type of individual unlikely to render aid on land would probably care even less at sea. They make up their mind and look for excuses later.




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Old 22-08-2015, 15:07   #44
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Re: So your cruising and come across illegal immigrants/ refuges in distress, what do

rogn-
Without questioning any of the points...If you don't have helicopter medevac insurance, and the treatment you want or need is not available locally? Driving fourteen hours to self-evacuate to better care does not seem unreasonable at all. I'd hate to drive 14 hours (on road, off road, car, truck, whatever) even when healthy and well-rested, but if I needed medical care...
You really don't want to know what even an "ambulance" ride will cost, if you have to first bring them to you, and then go back out, making it a 28-hour round trip ride for them. Heck, even in the US you can get a bill for a fast $800 for a municipal ambulance ride less than five miles long.
Just saying.
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Old 22-08-2015, 15:08   #45
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Re: So your cruising and come across illegal immigrants/ refuges in distress, what do

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This happened in 2001. It's important to watch the dates on Internet press releases.

Thanks, M,
However, if it happened yesterday or in 2001, I believe one's attitude should be to evaluate and re-evaluate one's potential cruising grounds. As Dylan said . . . . "The Times They Are A Changin'" Good luck and good sailing.
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