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Old 22-10-2014, 12:43   #31
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Re: Securing the Companionway Hatch

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Originally Posted by rognvald View Post
I guess I'm just having a problem with this issue since it seems so wrong to have to worry about locking yourself in your boat at any time of the day or night. I have responded to this issue in similar discussions and my ideas have not changed.
Well, I know two people killed and two very close to being killed in 4 different attacks.

But you do what you like but your BS lack of security does effect all other cruisers. When they find out you are an easy target and rob you they will expect all of us to be easy so we will all get more visits at night.

Sleep well!

PS does your wife agree or have you just railroaded her?

Whats so hard about this:
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Old 22-10-2014, 13:36   #32
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Re: Securing the Companionway Hatch

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Well, I know two people killed and two very close to being killed in 4 different attacks.

But you do what you like but your BS lack of security does effect all other cruisers. When they find out you are an easy target and rob you they will expect all of us to be easy so we will all get more visits at night.

Sleep well!

PS does your wife agree or have you just railroaded her?

Whats so hard about this:


Mark,
Thanks for the concern(?) but I find it difficult to judge someone unless you know them personally and we all know that is quite impossible with a knowledge of someone based upon an internet personae. I also have a difficult time understanding how I would be responsible for other cruisers misfortune based upon my individual practice of which I assume full responsibility. I claim no responsibility for others. I have never followed the herd nor have ever been a card carrying member. And, it is quite unlikely that you would find me in the popular anchorages anywhere. Further, I don't think it is necessary to provide a personal biography but I can assure you that as a person who grew up in Chicago I have never had a problem in my life defending myself or those whom I love. I would find it difficult to imagine that I would be seen as an easy target, but we all know in life anything is possible. My partner has complete trust and faith in my abilities and knowledge and has never questioned my decisions which she has based upon years of first hand experience in our relationship. And, as I said earlier, you will not find me visiting places where the concern for human life is a real and distinct concern. Polar bears, sharks, and angry moose . . . now that's another question. Good luck and good sailing.
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Old 22-10-2014, 14:15   #33
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Re: Securing the Companionway Hatch

There is a difference between locking yourself in like fort knox and just gently reminding people they are not on their own boat.

If having some basic security brings comfort to both myself and my wife, that is what counts.
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Old 22-10-2014, 15:00   #34
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Re: Securing the Companionway Hatch

I have a barrel bolt on mine, came with the boat. I've never thought about the thing locking itself. There is quite a lot of resistance and you have to jiggle the hatch just a little for it to go in, looks to be a factory installed item.
I'm going to build something like Mark has and do an alarm, like he has, It's just one of those things that I couldn't sleep ever again if I didn't and something happened to my wife or kids.
Total cost shouldn't be more than one good night out on the town
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Old 22-10-2014, 15:02   #35
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Re: Securing the Companionway Hatch

However you lock yourself in, make sure it won't prevent you from getting out in a hurry, in the dark or a boat full of smoke
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Old 23-10-2014, 12:05   #36
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Re: Securing the Companionway Hatch

We live in a rural county with very little crime and a homicide might happen every year or two. Having said that, we have had drug related murders and two old retired lady were beaten to death by a cleaning lady who was stealing money from one of them. A women was recently killed, dumped on the side of the road and her body burned for some stupid reason by two men who were her "friends."

The sheriff has an automated call system that will call houses in a given area to warn them of incidents taking place. We have been called twice warning us that a murder suspect was on on foot in our area and once for an escaped prisoner.

Our house is located such that it cannot be seen from the road and our driveway cannot be seen from a gate across the road. Most people do not know our house even exists. This was done on purpose.

We still lock our doors.

You never know who will come out of the woods, they could be an escaped prisoner, a murderer on the loose, armed trespassers, people dumping trash, people "selling" stuff but looking to blitzkrieg the owner after spraying them with a chemical., or people looking to rob the place. All of the above have happened at our little house in the woods in a very safe area.

The only way to have zero chance of being a victim of a crime is to be were there are no people. If there are people, there is risk of crime.

Later,
Dan
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Old 23-10-2014, 15:39   #37
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Re: Securing the Companionway Hatch

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We live in a rural county with very little crime and a homicide might happen every year or two. Having said that, we have had drug related murders and two old retired lady were beaten to death by a cleaning lady who was stealing money from one of them. A women was recently killed, dumped on the side of the road and her body burned for some stupid reason by two men who were her "friends."

The sheriff has an automated call system that will call houses in a given area to warn them of incidents taking place. We have been called twice warning us that a murder suspect was on on foot in our area and once for an escaped prisoner.

Our house is located such that it cannot be seen from the road and our driveway cannot be seen from a gate across the road. Most people do not know our house even exists. This was done on purpose.

We still lock our doors.

You never know who will come out of the woods, they could be an escaped prisoner, a murderer on the loose, armed trespassers, people dumping trash, people "selling" stuff but looking to blitzkrieg the owner after spraying them with a chemical., or people looking to rob the place. All of the above have happened at our little house in the woods in a very safe area.

The only way to have zero chance of being a victim of a crime is to be were there are no people. If there are people, there is risk of crime.

Later,
Dan

Dan,
There is a difference in a home on land versus a boat on the water. Once you have chosen where you want to live on land and buy a house, you are committed. You cannot pull your home, like an anchor and move. And, you are wise to lock your doors--whether in the country or in the city and have adequate personal protection. However, there is a difference in where you CHOOSE to cruise and the potential for crime. There are many places in the Caribbean or Africa, for example, that have a reputation for crimes against the person. We all know where they are based upon validated reports. You can CHOOSE not to visit those places and go to safe areas like the Bahamas, Florida Keys, the South Pacific, or areas north to Newfoundland, Labrador, or Alaska, for example, where the chance of crime is almost non-existent. Nothing in life is 100% but there are areas to cruise where it would be a statistical anomaly for a crime to occur. Again, as I have said before in similar discussions, there are some people/cruisers who are destined to become victims since they ignore statistics and believe it will never happen to them. And if you think a violent dedicated thug will let a barrel bolt, alarm or a metal companionway stand in the way of a crime, you are sadly deluded. . . a lit cigarette and a liter of gas is all it takes. Good luck and good sailing in people friendly places.
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Old 23-10-2014, 16:10   #38
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Re: Securing the Companionway Hatch

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Dan,
There is a difference in a home on land versus a boat on the water. Once you have chosen where you want to live on land and buy a house, you are committed. You cannot pull your home, like an anchor and move. And, you are wise to lock your doors--whether in the country or in the city and have adequate personal protection. However, there is a difference in where you CHOOSE to cruise and the potential for crime. There are many places in the Caribbean or Africa, for example, that have a reputation for crimes against the person. We all know where they are based upon validated reports. You can CHOOSE not to visit those places and go to safe areas like the Bahamas, Florida Keys, the South Pacific, or areas north to Newfoundland, Labrador, or Alaska, for example, where the chance of crime is almost non-existent. Nothing in life is 100% but there are areas to cruise where it would be a statistical anomaly for a crime to occur. Again, as I have said before in similar discussions, there are some people/cruisers who are destined to become victims since they ignore statistics and believe it will never happen to them. And if you think a violent dedicated thug will let a barrel bolt, alarm or a metal companionway stand in the way of a crime, you are sadly deluded. . . a lit cigarette and a liter of gas is all it takes. Good luck and good sailing in people friendly places.
I can remember when going to the Keys and Bahamas was more risky than it appears to be today. We stopped at Miami Beach once and back then it was NOT a good place to be. We had not choice but to pull into the marina with transmission problems. My friends and I were graving hamburgers and fries after being on the boat for a week so off we went. We eventually found some food after walking for an hour, seeing street walkers so danged old and ugly that I wondered how they made a living.

Sometimes you gotta make a stop.

While a bolt or luck want stop a determined thug, the vast majority of thugs aint that determined, nor do they carry gas and a match. Even it they are carrying a can and a match, there are other ways out of a boat. I can only remember one boat burned out as a violent criminal action but the murders took place before the match was struck.

The locked entrance is to prevent an entry at best or at least provide a warning of an attack and time to react. Our house has lots of glass. While we lock the doors almost constantly, when we leave the house I would prefer to leave the doors unlocked since anyone wanting to break in can easily do so. I would rather them just steal stuff and not break a window.

People are surprised at our wanting to sell our dream home and land and take off in a boat. We are sorta surprised ourselves. But we bought our land and built a house for peace and quiet as well as privacy. The problem with a house is that you are stuck without ever happens near you and you can't move. We can move the boat just a wee bit easier if we don't like our surroundings.

There are places we would like to visit but it simply is not safe or too risky so we won't go there. There is one place in particular that would be really great to stay at, and while no attacks have taken place against cruisers in this particular spot, nearby areas are NOT safe with kidnapping and murders of US, EU and Asians taking place. Tis a shame because it is a great area with wonderful people. I would like to think the problem would be gone when we get there but since this has been an issue off and on for centuries I don't hold out much hope for a successful solution.

Avoidance is the plan but sometime plans don't work out.

Later,
Dan
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Old 23-10-2014, 16:20   #39
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Re: Securing the Companionway Hatch

Dannc,
Sounds like you are a man with common sense and I would guess you'll be just fine in your future travels. Good luck and safe sailing. P.S. From someone who lived in Miami for many years . . . do you have to be so hard on those well meaning seasoned hookers? Good luck and good trolling.
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Old 23-10-2014, 19:19   #40
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Re: Securing the Companionway Hatch

You simply can not chose to just go to the safe places. The man who was Murdered last year in Vieux Fort didnt intend on staying there overnight but was forced to by Customs and Immigration. He is DEAD.


So to go cruising with no way to secure your self from the inside is just blithe stupidity. And that you belligerently attack those who know better than you is amazing.

This was taken about exactly 12 months ago in a place you will likely be cruising:

What do you think that is? Movie make-up?
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Old 24-10-2014, 19:45   #41
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Re: Securing the Companionway Hatch

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The locked entrance is to prevent an entry at best or at least provide a warning of an attack and time to react.
Exactly... we are not trying to prepare to stop the 1/2 of 1/2 of 1.2 percent of crimes that are predestined to be violent confrontations... they certainly do happen in nice places. Our family was the unfortunate victim of just such an attack in a supposedly non-violent and completely safe area when we were younger. The offender was caught and went to prison for many years.

The barrel bolt is to deter the 13 years old locals with nothing better to do than swim out to an anchored boat at 3 am in the morning and look around for something valuable. Or to prevent a drunken fellow boater from deciding to sleep in one of our berths because they got on the wrong boat.

Like I said, its time to react and gauge the situation and prevent petty theft from occurring at night. Maybe enough time to get out a VHF call or call emergency services.
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Old 25-10-2014, 09:45   #42
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Re: Securing the Companionway Hatch

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You simply can not chose to just go to the safe places. The man who was Murdered last year in Vieux Fort didnt intend on staying there overnight but was forced to by Customs and Immigration. He is DEAD.


So to go cruising with no way to secure your self from the inside is just blithe stupidity. And that you belligerently attack those who know better than you is amazing.

This was taken about exactly 12 months ago in a place you will likely be cruising:

What do you think that is? Movie make-up?

Mark,
I am certain from your previous responses that you feel safe(r) with your iron fortress companionway. And, since you are undoubtedly a decent person, I hope it will provide you with everything you expect it to be and that you will never have to rely on it for your safety or survival.
I hate to beat a dead horse or seem politically incorrect but there are trouble zones around the world and cruisers who opt to sail to these areas (as you have mentioned),obviously, must take precautions for safety. They are areas with "Third World" populations whose standard of living is dramatically different from Western countries. That is a given. But there are other areas to cruise where that will never be a concern or at least a statistical anamoly for crimes against the person. I have mentioned these places previously. The case cited above is indeed a tragedy. But, would the man murdered above have been safe with bars and bolts? I doubt it would have done anything other than slowed the intruders for an extra minute and if the man didn't have personal protection the results would have been the same. And, as I said previously ,a lit cigarette and some lighter fluid or a crowbar with a 200 pound man would change the game dramatically. So, what is the solution? It is the same. You must decide how important it is for you and your loved ones to cruise to areas of the world that have a greater than average potential for crimes against the person. And, not just specific islands in a group that are safe and unsafe as was the case above, but entire "areas of concern" based upon statistics. I don't mean to be judgmental, but my personal opinion of many of the cruisers we have met in our travels is that they have lived sheltered middle class lives in the suburbs and are remarkable nave. And, when they have their "bucket list" of places to visit to earn their eagle badges of cruising, they will be the unfortunate targets. What's the point? What is your reason for cruising? Good luck and safe cruising.
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Old 26-10-2014, 14:44   #43
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Re: Securing the Companionway Hatch

We humans have the unique ability to self-deceive. Maybe if I don't think about it it won't happen.. Maybe if I don't cruise in bad places it won't happen.. The idea that crime is localized is mostly an American one. Because in the United States, crime is indeed mostly localized to known bad areas. The whole world isn't like that. Yes, it can happen anywhere. The only time I saw someone dying with a stab wound to the chest was in a deemed safe area, not a bad part of town. He just had a nice jacket and someone wanted it..

I have always been amazed at the attitude that you don't need to think about personal safety when it comes to other humans. Yet, the same people will drive with their seat belt on or buy a super sea anchor just in case.. Violence is an uncomfortable thought, but burying one's head in the sand does not prevent it from happening. If you are single and alone on the boat, who cares. If you have family with you and don't take precautions, then you are irresponsible and uncaring. There is no nicer way to put it. It doesn't matter if your mate and kids agree with you. How much does a simple lock cost, and how long does it take to put it on? Sometimes having an extra thirty seconds to react can save lives.

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The case cited above is indeed a tragedy. But, would the man murdered above have been safe with bars and bolts?
DUH! Absolutely! Seconds count. If having a lock increases my chances of survival from 10% to 12%, I'll take the extra 2% any day!

Yes, some areas are safer than others, and some should not be visited. There are no 100% safe areas however, and not taking simple steps to avoid tragedy is plain stupid and irresponsible. And for what? Being politically correct? Believe in the goodness of humanity?

I am not being harsh here... A six inch blade in your wife's chest is harsh... Not installing a $20 lock to prevent it...

I have seen it everywhere. People not doing anything to improve their safety and their family's. They want to educate the criminals instead, understand where they come from, and not offend anyone by locking a companionway. You don't want to offend the poor locals by not making them feel welcome to take anything they want and maim you.. It's mind boggling!

When it happens, you'd give everything you own for that lock, everything, in a heartbeat, just to get a few seconds more to grab a frying pan to defend yourself with, guaranteed!

Gil.
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Old 27-10-2014, 08:35   #44
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Re: Securing the Companionway Hatch

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We humans have the unique ability to self-deceive. Maybe if I don't think about it it won't happen.. Maybe if I don't cruise in bad places it won't happen.. The idea that crime is localized is mostly an American one. Because in the United States, crime is indeed mostly localized to known bad areas. The whole world isn't like that. Yes, it can happen anywhere. The only time I saw someone dying with a stab wound to the chest was in a deemed safe area, not a bad part of town. He just had a nice jacket and someone wanted it..

I have always been amazed at the attitude that you don't need to think about personal safety when it comes to other humans. Yet, the same people will drive with their seat belt on or buy a super sea anchor just in case.. Violence is an uncomfortable thought, but burying one's head in the sand does not prevent it from happening. If you are single and alone on the boat, who cares. If you have family with you and don't take precautions, then you are irresponsible and uncaring. There is no nicer way to put it. It doesn't matter if your mate and kids agree with you. How much does a simple lock cost, and how long does it take to put it on? Sometimes having an extra thirty seconds to react can save lives.



DUH! Absolutely! Seconds count. If having a lock increases my chances of survival from 10% to 12%, I'll take the extra 2% any day!

Yes, some areas are safer than others, and some should not be visited. There are no 100% safe areas however, and not taking simple steps to avoid tragedy is plain stupid and irresponsible. And for what? Being politically correct? Believe in the goodness of humanity?

I am not being harsh here... A six inch blade in your wife's chest is harsh... Not installing a $20 lock to prevent it...

I have seen it everywhere. People not doing anything to improve their safety and their family's. They want to educate the criminals instead, understand where they come from, and not offend anyone by locking a companionway. You don't want to offend the poor locals by not making them feel welcome to take anything they want and maim you.. It's mind boggling!

When it happens, you'd give everything you own for that lock, everything, in a heartbeat, just to get a few seconds more to grab a frying pan to defend yourself with, guaranteed!

Gil.

Gil,
There is so much here that is patently absurd that I almost ignored it but I believe a response will help others following this discussion with this dilemma. Firstly, for you to infer/state that I am guilty of "self deception" would require that you know me personally since words on a page only give the reader a surface glimpse of the writer--not who she/he is. You do not know me nor do you know what I have done in my life and my personal history. Unlike some on this forum, I do not believe it is necessary to provide a detailed autobiography of my life in order to contribute to discussions about sailing or to validate my responses. And, when writers use this ploy of "all knowing" rather than responding specifically to the the words another has written, they are disingenuous at best. But, to the point, if you read the words I have written carefully, you would know that I never stated there were completely safe places to cruise with no possibility of crime but rather that there were some places safer than others. . . much safer. I mentioned those places in this discussion previously. In my opinion, and I say this with due respect, you have made an incredibly nave statement and implicit in that statement is the inference that like the Buddha--you are the enlightened one. This is not apparent from the words you have written. Secondly, I have never stated on this Forum that I do not provide a safety net for myself and my loved ones. I do and it is very effective and would thwart and overcome anything short of an army in a critical situation. It does not include, however, barrel bolt locks and companionway bars. Finally, if you want to talk about providing protection for those you love, I can assure you that whoever is/are the unfortunate soul(s) who travel in your company on a boat will never survive even a mild attack with your only means of protection being a $20. lock and a frying pan. Now that, my friend, is self deception. Good luck and safe sailing.
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Old 27-10-2014, 08:53   #45
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Re: Securing the Companionway Hatch

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But, would the man murdered above have been safe with bars and bolts? I doubt it would have done anything other than slowed the intruders for an extra minute and if the man didn't have personal protection the results would have been the same. And, as I said previously ,a lit cigarette and some lighter fluid or a crowbar with a 200 pound man would change the game dramatically. So, what is the solution? It is the same. You must decide how important it is for you and your loved ones to cruise to areas of the world that have a greater than average potential for crimes against the person.
I know the story that Mark refers to. And the mans wife survived. So the intruders were not intent on killing everyone aboard and ended up fleeing having met resistance. Had they had a gate like Mark has and they were down below with it locked, the chances of him being killed would most certainly have been reduced. And since the criminals are likely after belongings, burning the boat accomplishes nothing. Even if you are right and it would have only delayed them, it could have given them time to radio for help, turn lights on...etc - any one of these things might have caused the intruders to flee.

I'm not sure why you are so quick to dismiss extra security such as "bars and bolts".

What areas have you cruised?
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