Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 04-10-2015, 07:25   #46
Registered User
 
Travis McGee's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Jax, FL
Boat: 48' steel cutter
Posts: 291
Re: Safety of Ships' Lifeboats in Major Storms

I think a freefall lifeboat as seen in the videos would be the only way to safely deploy a lifeboat in the middle of a major hurricane.
__________________

__________________
Travis McGee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2015, 07:49   #47
Registered User
 
Travis McGee's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Jax, FL
Boat: 48' steel cutter
Posts: 291
Re: Safety of Ships' Lifeboats in Major Storms

[QUOTE=nigel1;1929209]They dont always work as planned

Maybe not, but this is a guaranteed fail in a hurricane. I'd put the chance of a successful deployment from the El Faro beam-on to 30 foot-plus waves (rolling 45* side to side if my own ship experience is any guide) at ZERO.



Compare deploying a life boat in a hurricane from the rolling side of El Faro to the well-known Maersk Alabama, and its rather typical freefall life boat.

__________________

__________________
Travis McGee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2015, 09:22   #48
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: between the devil and the deep blue sea
Boat: a sailing boat
Posts: 17,314
Re: Safety of Ships' Lifeboats in Major Storms

Someone mentioned their EPIRB. I too have seen that info in the media saying deployed, gave an initial beep then mute. Today another search day. There should be some containers floating (?) if she turned over.

b.
__________________
barnakiel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2015, 09:40   #49
Registered User
 
Travis McGee's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Jax, FL
Boat: 48' steel cutter
Posts: 291
Re: Safety of Ships' Lifeboats in Major Storms

Quote:
Originally Posted by frozenhawaiian View Post
current iteration of SOLAS for unlimited tonnage vessels on oceanic routes stipulates epirbs in the lifeboats. the problem with what the el faro was carrying aren't the boats so much as the davits they launch from. with the more modern freefall lifeboats everybody gets in, straps in, hatch gets shut, someone pulls the release lever, boat drops free. done.

the el faro carried open boats on old school gravity davits. gravity dvaits work well enough the problem is that someone has to stay on deck to operate the davit to lower the lifeboat to the water, and then climb down a jacobs ladder to board the lifeboat. the information I'm getting from the network of maine maritime alums is that the first pings were from 2 containers which had GPS transponders on them then the ships EPIRB ping was picked up later. problem is now the EPIRB has gone silent and nothing more than a few life rings have been found. combine that with the initial report from the ship they had lost power, we're experiencing flooding and were carrying a 15 degree list, also the fact that a deep draft ship without power will lay beam to the seas in short order that speaks to me of a ship that rolled then sank very quickly. this one is unfortunately hitting very close to home, 2 of my schoolmates were aboard that ship.
Not looking good at all. I am pretty sure they would have had water-activated float-free EPIRBs as well as manually activated ones. For them not to light off is a very bad sign. I can only guess that she rolled very fast and took most of her safety gear down with her. If she was listing 15* before losing propulsion, I can only imagine she was rolling nearly to the point of no return once she was beam-to those waves in that wind.
__________________
Travis McGee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2015, 10:26   #50
Long Range Cruiser
 
MarkJ's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Australian living on "Sea Life" currently in England.
Boat: Beneteau 393 "Sea Life"
Posts: 12,828
Images: 25
Re: Safety of Ships' Lifeboats in Major Storms

Quote:
Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
Someone mentioned their EPIRB. I too have seen that info in the media saying deployed, gave an initial beep then mute. Today another search day. There should be some containers floating (?) if she turned over.

b.

From gCaptain forum and not confirmed officially:
"3 life rings , life jacket and a container were found floating . The tug couldn't get a container number to verify it was of the El faro"
__________________
MarkJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2015, 11:00   #51
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Seattle
Boat: Work: Ships/Tugs Play: Grand Banks 36
Posts: 76
Re: Safety of Ships' Lifeboats in Major Storms

El Faro most certainly was SOLAS certified, even if only operating on domestic runs (U.S. Mainland to PR is a Jones Act trade).

Ships like this usually only have one EPIRB and it is either on a bridge wing or on the flying bridge. It should hydrostatically release and self activate if fitted and working properly.

You're required to have one SART per lifeboat but these are usually kept on the bridge, particularly when you have open lifeboats. When abandoning ship, it is somebody's (usually the 2/m or master) job to grab all of the emergency communication devices - EPIRB, SARTS, SCT's and anything else of use from the bridge.

Something very bad and catastrophic had to happen for them to disappear like this without a distress call. Even without main power, there are battery banks that supply power to the GMDSS console. These batteries are continuously trickle charged with power from the emergency buss via the EDG.

I don't think this is going to end well, but I hope I'm wrong...
__________________
Watermann is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2015, 11:10   #52
Registered User

Join Date: May 2011
Location: Ithaca, NY
Boat: Pearson Wanderer 30
Posts: 45
Re: Safety of Ships' Lifeboats in Major Storms

Ship owner has confirmed that sister ship El Yunque and a contracted tug found a container believed to be from the ship and an oil slick. Hope is fading fast.

TOTE Media Release: 10-4-15, 12:30pm EST | El Faro Incident Site
__________________
As eccentric as my boat.
Crazer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2015, 11:15   #53
Long Range Cruiser
 
MarkJ's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Australian living on "Sea Life" currently in England.
Boat: Beneteau 393 "Sea Life"
Posts: 12,828
Images: 25
Re: Safety of Ships' Lifeboats in Major Storms

Bad news confirmed by USCG release.
Oil slick found.
Update 4: Coast Guard searching for missing container ship caught in Hurricane Joaquin

Quote:
UPDATE 4: COAST GUARD SEARCHING FOR MISSING CONTAINER SHIP CAUGHT IN HURRICANE JOAQUIN
MIAMI – Coast Guard search and rescue crews have located multiple objects in the water in the search area for the El Faro.
Life jackets, life rings, containers and an oil sheen have been located by Coast Guard aircrews. The objects have not been confirmed to be from the El Faro at this time.
__________________
MarkJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2015, 13:11   #54
Registered User
 
El Pinguino's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Punta Arenas ahorra
Boat: 39' Westerly Sealord
Posts: 3,960
Re: Safety of Ships' Lifeboats in Major Storms

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rustic Charm View Post
And everyone died of whip lash
Don't laugh... quite a few people have been killed and injured during drills with this modern kit. Also there is still the risk of asphyxiation when abandoning burning ships... its happened.

That said the naval architect that put the boats where they were on El Faro was less than clever.... they are stupid high....
El Pinguino is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2015, 22:09   #55
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Cruising the Gulf of Mexico.
Boat: 1980 Morgan 415
Posts: 1,439
Re: Safety of Ships' Lifeboats in Major Storms

A wake up call for those shopping for a hurricane proof blue water boat.

I really don't think they make them other than submarines.


------------------------------
Looking for another pretty place to work on the boat.
__________________
Working on spending my children's inheritance.
Cap Erict3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2015, 22:52   #56
Registered User
 
Randy's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: San Diego
Boat: Searunner 31
Posts: 639
Re: Safety of Ships' Lifeboats in Major Storms

Hurricane proof? Who said there was such a thing for any kind of ship.
I have spent a lot of time in the Western Pacific and if a tropical storm is within 1000 miles it is plotted every 4hrs and alternative voyage plans are made.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
__________________
Randy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2015, 00:39   #57
Senior Cruiser
 
Jim Cate's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2008
Location: cruising SW Pacific
Boat: Jon Sayer 1-off 46 ft fract rig sloop strip plank in W Red Cedar
Posts: 11,468
Re: Safety of Ships' Lifeboats in Major Storms

Some years ago we were on passage between Vanuatu and Oz, and crossed paths with a rather large container ship. Hadn't expected any traffic just there, so out of curiosity I called him on the VHF. turns out to have been Russian registry, and I had a nice chat with the skipper, who spoke good, if somewhat accented English. He said he was on route between NZed and somewhere in Japan. I mentioned that there was currently a super typhoon in his path, not that far above the equator. He replied, in a great Russian basso "we do not care about typhoons... we GO"!

I was impressed with his bravado, kinda concerned with his future. I think they made it without issue, for we didn't hear of any lost merchant vessels.

Jim
__________________
Jim and Ann s/v Insatiable II , lying Port Cygnet, Tasmania once again
Jim Cate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2015, 08:08   #58
Wayfaring Mariner
 
captain58sailin's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Homer, AK is my home port
Boat: Skookum 53'
Posts: 4,045
Images: 5
Re: Safety of Ships' Lifeboats in Major Storms

This Article is from the latest Gcaptain:The search for El Faro and its 33 crewmembers continued into Sunday night off Crooked Island in the Bahamas after covering 70,000 square nautical miles since Thursday. Two Coast Guard cutters were expected to stay in the area and search through the night as downgraded Hurricane Joaquin continued to move northeast towards Bermuda.
The U.S. Coast Guard said search crews on Sunday located ‘multiple objects’ in the water in the search area for the American cargo ship after it went went missing Hurricane Joaquin on Thursday.
Life jackets, life rings, containers and an oil sheen have been located by Coast Guard aircrews, the Coast Guard said in an update Sunday morning. The debris was not confirmed to be from the El Faro at the time of the update, the Coast Guard added.
“The debris is scattered about over several miles,” said Coast Guard Chief Petty Officer Ryan Doss. “It’s going to take some time to verify. The items would appear to be consistent with the missing ship.”
Late Saturday, the Coast Guard said that search crews had found a life ring that was confirmed from the El Faro approximately 120 nautical miles northeast of Crooked Island, Bahamas, near the ship’s last known location.
An update from the Coast Guard on Sunday evening said the debris was spread over 225 square miles and included styrofoam, wood, cargo and other items. The debris was still not confirmed to be from the El Faro.
The Coast Guard Cutter Charles Sexton and the Coast Guard Cutter Resolute were en-route to assist with the search as of Sunday morning. Other Coast Guard assets involved in Sunday’s search included two HC-130 Hercules airplanes, the cutter Northland and an MH-60 Jayhawk helicopter. The search also involved the U.S. Air Force, the U.S. Navy and several tugboats contracted by the El Faro‘s owner, TOTE Maritime.
Sea and weather conditions during Sunday’s search include one-foot seas and 15 knots winds with unrestricted visibility, the Coast Guard said.
The El Faro, a 790-foot roll-on/rolloff cargo ship, departed Jacksonville, Florida on September 29th en route to San Juan with 391 containers, 294 trailers and cars. The last communication from the ship was a Inmarsat satellite notification received Thursday morning (Oct. 1) at 7:30 a.m. stating that the El Faro was beset by Hurricane Joaquin, had lost propulsion and had a 15-degree list. The crew reported the ship had previously taken on water, but that all flooding had been contained.
The crew of the El Faro consists of 28 U.S. citizens and five Polish nationals.
As of Saturday night, search and rescue crews had covered more than 30,000 square-miles since Thursday, however any attempt to reestablish communications with the vessel and crew proved unsuccessful. Sea conditions in the search area Saturday were reported to be 20 to 40-feet with winds in excess to 100 knots, hampering search efforts.
The El Faro is owned and operated by TOTE Maritime Puerto Rico, one of two divisions within TOTE Maritime. It is one of three TOTE ships serving the Jones Act trade route between the U.S. and Puerto Rico and the Caribbean.
“This morning TOTE Maritime Puerto Rico’s second ship, the El Yunque, and a contracted tugboat reached the area between the last known vicinity of the El Faro and the location that the Coast Guard recovered a life ring yesterday and carried out a visual survey,” Tim Nolan, President of TOTE Maritime Puerto Rico, said in a statement Sunday morning.
“The two vessels discovered a container, which appears to be from the El Faro, and observed what appears to be an oil sheen.
“At this time there has been no sighting of the El Faro or any life boats,” Nolan added.
Hurricane Joaquin hammered the Bahamas beginning Thursday with maximum sustained winds reaching 130 miles per hour, a Category 4 storm on the Saffir–Simpson hurricane wind scale. Joaquin strengthened on Saturday as it moved northeast towards Bermuda, but as of Sunday it was downgraded to a Category 2 storm with winds of 110 miles per hour.
Since Thursday, many have raised questions related to the condition of the El Faro, its safety equipment, the ship’s open-top lifeboats and the ship’s passage plan, which seemingly had the ship sailing directly into the eye of Hurricane Joaquin.
A fact sheet provided by TOTE said the El Faro has two lifeboats, one of each side of the ship. The boats are open type, each certified to carry 43 people. One is propelled by manual power and the other by a small diesel engine. The ship also carries five life rafts that normally need to be manually launched.
The sheet added that the last full American Bureau of Shipping annual hull and machinery inspections for El Faro were completed February 13, 2015, with the last U.S. Coast Guard annual inspection completed on March 5 and 6, 2015. TOTE port engineers also conduct weekly shipboard meeting with the captain and chief engineer to review maintenance and required support, while shoreside contractors provide regularly scheduled vessel support when in Jacksonville, the company said.
Earlier this year, TOTE Maritime celebrated the launch of the world’s first LNG powered containerships, the Marlin-class ships Isla Bella and Perla Del Caribe. Both ships will service the same Jones Act Puerto Rico trade route sailing between Jacksonville, Florida and San Juan, Puerto Rico. The Marlin ships are scheduled for delivery in late 2015 and earlier 2016.
TOTE Maritime’s Alaskan division, TOTE Maritime Alaska, operates two vessels, the Orca-flass MV North Star and MV Midnight Star. Both are scheduled to be converted to run on liquefied natural gas later this year.
El Faro Specs:
  • Capacity: 600 FEU
  • Length: 790 ft.
  • Max Speed: 22 knots
  • Year Built: 1974
  • Updated: 1992/2006
  • US-built at Sun Shipbuilding in January 1975
  • US-flagged, American crew.
There is no reason for this vessel to be SOLAS certified and many USA flagged vessels are not, more likely it is ABS classified.
__________________
" Wisdom; is your reward for surviving your mistakes"
captain58sailin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2015, 09:26   #59
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2009
Boat: Charter
Posts: 171
Re: Safety of Ships' Lifeboats in Major Storms

The news is not good:

"Authorities believe a cargo ship missing since Thursday with 33 crewmen aboard was lost at sea and believed to have sunk in the teeth of Hurricane Joaquin, NBC News has learned. The families of the crew, including 28 Americans, have been notified. The U.S. Coast Guard said at a news conference Monday morning that it will continue to search for survivors"

El Faro, Cargo Ship Carrying 28 Americans, Believed to Have Sunk - NBC News
__________________
sec906 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2015, 09:56   #60
cat herder, extreme blacksheep
 
zeehag's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: furycame alley , tropics, mexico for now
Boat: 1976 FORMOSA yankee clipper 41
Posts: 17,777
Images: 56
Send a message via Yahoo to zeehag Send a message via Skype™ to zeehag
Re: Safety of Ships' Lifeboats in Major Storms

Quote:
Originally Posted by sec906 View Post
The news is not good:

"Authorities believe a cargo ship missing since Thursday with 33 crewmen aboard was lost at sea and believed to have sunk in the teeth of Hurricane Joaquin, NBC News has learned. The families of the crew, including 28 Americans, have been notified. The U.S. Coast Guard said at a news conference Monday morning that it will continue to search for survivors"

El Faro, Cargo Ship Carrying 28 Americans, Believed to Have Sunk - NBC News
they said the ingress was at that time static, and stopped, but that does not say anything about the list of 15 degrees, which is a hellofa lot of water, and pumps which were electrickery depenent without electrickery due to pump requirements ...... engines failed, and broaching to full furycame seas.. cat 4... yes, sunk, she prolly got so much roll going as to preclude self righting..remember, there were cars and containers to shift, as broaching seas caused a fatal rolling action only compounded by cargo shifts and sloshing bilge contents. as this precludes deployment of liferafts, and open lifeboats in a furycame should actually flood prior to being occupied, .. is not a good situation at any rate, whatever happened.
the broaching roll action is sensible as per conditions and circumstances on board.
cannot prevent broaching nor rolling without power, unfortunately.
is atragic sad situation.
no sign of em in 70000 sq miles with 225 sq miles of debris.. hard loss .
r i p all on board
__________________

zeehag is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
safety

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Thanks to USCG, RNLI, Lifeboats, AMVER, and Coast Guardsmen Steady Hand Our Community 0 27-11-2014 10:27
queensland storms. cooper Cruising News & Events 0 28-02-2008 22:33
Searching for informatin about big sail ships.Famous pirates ships. Santa Maria venelin General Sailing Forum 0 23-02-2008 03:20
West coast storms Randyonr3 Cruising News & Events 4 06-01-2008 21:39
lightning storms pete33458 Seamanship & Boat Handling 34 04-11-2007 19:49



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 20:26.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.