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Old 15-10-2012, 15:13   #61
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Sailing solo I'm not to keen on the thought of going over the side, but back on the boat the boom and the cooker are the two things which scare me most. There lies danger.......
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Old 15-10-2012, 16:19   #62
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Re: Saftey gear in cockpit

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Originally Posted by conachair View Post
Sailing solo I'm not to keen on the thought of going over the side, but back on the boat the boom and the cooker are the two things which scare me most. There lies danger.......
Agreed, both things that deserve great respect. Spilled boiling liquid burns from the cooker are common and quite nasty.

I was looking around my cockpit today, and here so for the OP here is the 'stuff' I saw....

Quite deep cockpit (hard to 'fall out of') with hard dodger (protection from solid green water)

Strong welded in Hand grips at compaignway entrance, back of hard dodger and helm.

Good non-skid everywhere, but particularly grippy stuff where you step over the coamings to the side decks.

Tether clip in points at compaignway, winches and helm; with dedicated permanent short tethers at helm.

Permanent port and starboard boom preventors operated from cockpit

We used to have a knife lashed at helm, but switched to carry knives, for two reason. The lashed one never got used and rusted (despite being stainless), and we felt we might not be able to reach the lashed one if we got tangled up and needed a knife quickly.

We used to have a life sling, but gave it away and replaced it with a plan to use 100m of 18mm polypro line (one of our shore tie lines) we keep stowed immediately available in the lazerette. We have seen a lot of life slings washed (off pushpit mountings) away by waves and felt it might not be there when we needed it, also ours was the inflatable model and I finally worried that after not being used it might not inflate or stay inflated. (note: the life sling, and my floating rope plan, do offer solutions to the difficult problem of how you get a MOB back to the boat and even more difficult how you then pick them out of the water. Those things need to be thought about because they are not easy. You are not going to be successful using a boathook like many people do in practice MOB fender pick-ups).

We prefer, when we can, to use and depend on gear that we can/do use 'everyday' (like the knives and shore line), rather than dedicated safety gear that never gets used. If we use it every day we know in what condition it's in and that it will actually work.

Other 'safety' stuff, like our harnesses and tethers and megawatt spot light, are stowed down below. Anything we can we stow below out the weather and salt spray and UV.
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Old 15-10-2012, 18:41   #63
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Re: Saftey gear in cockpit

Forgot - also in cockpit (under dodger) two kitchen timers to help as watch keeping and navigation (ETA to waypoints) reminders.
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Old 16-10-2012, 06:26   #64
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Re: Saftey gear in cockpit

Never heard of timers in the cockpit. We generally get there when we get there. MAybe it is good at night, although we aalternate and stay awake on the night passages.
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Old 16-10-2012, 11:21   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by landonshaw
Never heard of timers in the cockpit. We generally get there when we get there. MAybe it is good at night, although we aalternate and stay awake on the night passages.
We also use timers. They're good to prevent yourself from dozing off for too long, or getting too wrapped up in a book. I've also used a stopwatch combined with bearings to a fixed point to check drift speed, etc.....
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Old 16-10-2012, 11:48   #66
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Re: Saftey gear in cockpit

[QUOTE=.he will never get invited onboard for any challenging voyages for that reason and because I ain't spending thousands on installing a crane .[/QUOTE]

You don't need a crane. You need a rope boomvang assembly with snap shackles on each end. I bought one for $80 from Garhauer, and $40 for a big snap shackle for the MOB end. It goes in the cupboard with the other safety gear.

Together with the lifesling, it will help get the MOB onboard.

You hoist one end of the vang with a halyard, attach the other end to the lifesling that the victim is wearing, then use the vang's reduction to hoist the victim.

I firmly believe that not enough thought is given frequently to getting the victim back on board. In ASA classes we did endless MOB figure-of-eights, but they always ended with the float alongside the boat. In reality, now comes the hard bit!
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Old 16-10-2012, 13:29   #67
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Re: Saftey gear in cockpit

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Originally Posted by rebel heart View Post
I take anything related to MOB and put it on top of the LifeSling (under the top flap). Open the flap, throw the auto lighting stuff out, chuck the sling out.
You should tell your wife this. Handy to know!
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Old 16-10-2012, 14:04   #68
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Re: Saftey gear in cockpit

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You don't need a crane. You need a rope boomvang assembly with snap shackles on each end. Together with the lifesling, it will help get the MOB onboard.

I have a trysail Halyard, which has an extra long tail, primarily used to pick the dinghy out of the water, but also perfect for picking a heavy person out of the water. It's always set and ready to go, so there is no need to find or mess around with other gear. Just as a note - even a 4:1 tackle is going to be marginal and a struggle with some of today's really big people.

I firmly believe that not enough thought is given frequently to getting the victim back on board. In ASA classes we did endless MOB figure-of-eights, but they always ended with the float alongside the boat. In reality, now comes the hard bit!

Agree completely. I think some of this is legacy . . . .boats used to be smaller with lower free board and sailors used to be both lighter and stronger . . . so the 'pick-up' task used to be easier, and the instructional material has not really caught up.
.....
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Old 16-10-2012, 15:46   #69
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Re: Safety gear in cockpit

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A lot of talk about the Life Sling, but not enough factual stuff about the dangers of retrieval of a victim. The Life Sling can actually contribute to dangerous consequences according to a Coast Guard document on rescues (The Four Stages of Cold-Water Immersion By RADM Alan Steinman, USPHS (Ret) and Gordon Giesbrecht, Ph.D., ON SCENE, THE JOURNAL OF U.S. COAST GUARD SEARCH AND RESCUE, http://www.uscg.mil/hq/cg5/cg534/On%...e/OSFall06.pdf.

MOB victims can go into a dangerous condition, known as post-rescue collapse, which can be a result of retrieval of the victim in a vertical hoist from the water. A series of events can lead to a surge of chilled blood triggering cardiac arrest.

An alternative retrieval method was developed several years ago, by Tanya Budd, a young engineering student in Britain, and her invention, the Hypo-Hoist (- HypoHoist), is a clever solution to this problem.

A similar device can be made from a small jib or trysail, secured at the foot to the toerail, and the head raised by a halyard. The victim is drawn alongside in a prone position, then raised horizontally to the deck, without enhancing the dangers of the cold-induced shock damaging the patient.

Read the pdf, it will open your eyes to the actual dangers of hypothermia and subsequent treatment of victims.
I agree with the person that time in the water is a factor. If you have this device and it can be deployed quickly then it would seem to be better.

Our club has done recovery drills including trying the jib roll someone on deck. This is something that isn't easy to get right without practice. It took a long time to get everything tied off at the right length, sink the sail enough and get the person into the sail. The people being recovered said they were being drowned with the water in the sail and it was claustrophobic. Those last points probably don't matter as much as the time spent getting it to the point you can use it.


The block and tackle recommended for the Lifesling seems time consuming as well. If your halyard doesn't reach the Lifesling, grab the first piece of line you can find and lengthen the halyard. Students were able to lift a 400 lb instructor onto the boat using a halyard winch on a 27 foot boat.
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Old 17-10-2012, 03:18   #70
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Re: Saftey gear in cockpit

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Originally Posted by MarkSF View Post
I firmly believe that not enough thought is given frequently to getting the victim back on board. In ASA classes we did endless MOB figure-of-eights, but they always ended with the float alongside the boat. In reality, now comes the hard bit!
Yeah, my plan (for a normal sized person) is to use an inflatable dink (or liferaft - if I had one!) as the first stage......but I do have high freeboard and no aft steps into the water.

I dunno what the fella I was talking about actually weighs, gotta be over 300lbs - and likely nearer 350lbs (25 stone). Apart from the MOB recovery problem (despite being a good mate, if he goes - he goes. sh#t happens) I simply don't want the increased risk of him landing on me from longer / more challenging voyages. and of course on a 30 foot boat space is also an issue.......
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Old 17-10-2012, 10:45   #71
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Re: Safety gear in cockpit

Buying Ms. Budd's equipment would involve a substanial expense (I can't see it costing significantly less than a thousand dollars to buy) and a substantial delay (go find it, bring it on deck, deploy it, make sure the crew have trained with is) versus just dropping the foresail or main over the side and doing a burrito roll on the MOB with everything already in place.

"Nice idea, but" comes to mind.

Still, if I wanted a dedicated piece of eqiupment to get someone alongside out of the cold water quickly, I think a flat fender (the one like an exercise mat covered in canvas with heavily grommeted corners?) or a damage control mat, or a large "pool" raft with added grommets and reinforcement straps would do. All at negligible cost with other uses.

AFAIK the USCG study (very interesting publication hidden for all these years) it needs to be kept in perspective. Yes, hoisting the iced MOB out of the water and keeping them vertical seems like a bad thing---but that's still better than leaving them in the water, apparently. Get 'em out fast and just don't leave them swinging in the wind.
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Old 17-10-2012, 10:48   #72
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Re: Safety gear in cockpit

I'm happy to hear the conversation return to the Hypo-Hoist concept of recovery. As for me, I am planning on fabricating my own equivalent, and mounting two of them, rolled up and ready to deploy on each side of the boat. That means I can deploy a Lifesling or other device, make the recovery turn, get the victim into the lee of the boat, attach a spare halyard (staysail, spinnaker, running back, whatever) to the appropriate side recovery device, then haul away at the winch, rolling the victim horizontally up into the side deck of the boat where I (or my rescuer) can safely and securely proceed with the next phase of treatment. This, like any system, requires the gear is always ready for deployment, takes minimal training and time to effect an actual rescue, and actually does more good than harm in the process. I'm happy that someone actually addressed the dynamics of causing the rescue device to sink, forming a cradle to capture the victim. I think this is a great opportunity for us to craft a device, similar to the Hypo-Hoist, that is even better in design, and cheap enough for all of us to actually have one (or two) ready for immediate deployment in time of need. I'm thinking of small sand bags sewed into bottom of the "cradle", and perhaps some flexible rods or battens to help keep an open mouth that can capture the victim. Any ideas?
And, thank you Amanda Budd, for your brilliant concept. I don't know what the status of your product is, currently, but it takes us where we need to go. Sadly, commercial development means intermediaries who jack prices up beyond what the current market may be able to bear. I haven't even heard of any mention of your device on this side of the pond. I also don't intend to cheat you of the potential rewards of your innovation. I only hope that the concept becomes available and so common in use that sailors think of it as a normal part of the "kit" of the boat, and as easy to use as putting on a safety harness. Amanda Budd is my hero(ine), and I would love to see her receive more attention, and reward, for such a clever device.
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Old 17-10-2012, 11:48   #73
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Re: Safety gear in cockpit

Roy, sand is mainly quartz is mainly light. If you want to use it for ballast, look for zircon sand:

SandBag Type
Play Sand 5.1 lbs.
Riverbed Sand 7.9 lbs.
Chromite 9.9 lbs.
Zircon 10.1 lbs.

which this random web source shows to be twice as dense as regular sand (Sold for metal casting & for shooters' sand bags.) or at least the riverbed sand, rather than the "play" stuff. There may be some alternative kind of non-lead non-rusting shot sold in CA that you could use as well, birdshot is available in a number of unlikely materials with the same density as lead these days.
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Old 17-10-2012, 13:16   #74
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Re: Saftey gear in cockpit

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Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey View Post
Yeah, my plan (for a normal sized person) is to use an inflatable dink (or liferaft - if I had one!) as the first stage......but I do have high freeboard and no aft steps into the water.
An excellent plan.
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Old 17-10-2012, 17:45   #75
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Some (not sure if all) of the police launches in Hong Kong have climbing nets/slings rolled up and ready to go on the sides. Can be used as has been discussed above, is very neat and unobtrusive and i think most yachts could have such a neat roll tied to staunchions. Might even double as a fender.
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