Risks of CO2 on Board

[donradcliffe]

The most common failure mode of the sodastream is that the valve sticks and does not close completely, allowing the gas in the cylinder to escape. My experience has been that it takes about 6 to 24 hours for the gas to escape. As someone else said, I will be happy to dispose of your highly dangerous CO2 cylinders for you.

[colemj]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

Co2 is not simply a lack of O2, look it up, what drives the desire to breahte, a lack of O2?

The desire to breathe is related to a receptor response to a buildup of CO2. However, you are confusing things - you will just as surely die in any gas environment lacking O2. It is not the CO2 that kills you when not breathing - it is the lack of O2. Now turn this around on CO - there, a small amount will kill you regardless of the amount of O2 present, or ability to get rid of CO2, because there is chemical binding of the hemoglobin involved.

Why do you seem to insist that a high concentration of CO2 isn't deadly when there is ample scientific evidence to the contrary?

Where did I say this?

I'm sure it wouldn't be that hard if you really wanted it inside the boat to put it in a sort of airtight container with a hose connected to overboard, sure some might leak in, but surely not enough to get to a deadly concentration?

Yes, a very good way to treat your fire extinguishers indeed. Maybe even put a lock on that container so nobody could accidentally expose you to harm.

Everything has risk, my cell phone and or Ipad could catch fire from the battery, but I believe the risk is outweighed by the advantage of having them,
Dockhead needs to decide if the advantage of having a soda machine outweighs the risk, however small or large the risk may be.

BTW, I don't put my cell phone and Ipad in a pyrex dish like I should if I were a truly paranoid person when I sleep

Ah, now you understand my posts. The fear of being killed by a soda machine is soooooooooooooooo out in far field that it is utterly impractical to spend the energy on it. It is a phobia at this point - not based in any reality.

Or it is stubbornly sticking to one's guns….

Mark

[colemj]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

oxygen. It displaces oxygen in hemoglobin through the "Bohr Effect".

Are you a chemist or a lawyer? The Bohr effect describes equilibrium dynamics of oxygen binding to hemoglobin, not displacement or competition chemistry. It is part of the normal O2/CO2 transport system for these gasses.

There is no displacement of oxygen, or competitive binding to hemoglobin, for CO2 like there is for CO. CO2 causes oxygen to be released from hemoglobin through an equilibrium effect (a good thing) and the deoxygenated hemoglobin carries the CO2 back to an area that is oxygen rich (the lungs), where it is immediately dumped. This carrying mechanism is not binding of the heme itself, like O2 and CO.

There are other things that cause oxygen to be dumped via a Bohr Effect - you should probably start worrying about those also.

25 people a year killed by CO2???? Out of 7 billion?

Many more are killed by their toilets, and you keep ducking my question about whether you have removed your toilet or not.

Mark

[hellosailor]

Dockhead, unless you have a very small submarine and a HUGE CO2 bottle, don't worry about this one. Domestic CO2 chargers typically will leak so slowly, so inoften, so little content, you'd be in more danger if someone passed a lot of gas while in an enclosed head compartment.


If one of your fire extinguishers leaks, you'll still either not notice it, or feel sick enough to get out abovedeck or ashore.


But those Sodastream machines? They're very clever, but here in the states they typically run $20 to refill their standard (not large) gas bottle. Which can be refilled with the exact same quality gas at any paintball place for $3, if you make up the adapter. I'm sorry, I just don't like being GOUGED.


I used to use a soda maker when the CO2 carts (8 gram?) were 25c each or $1/10 discount, but now those have gone up to a buck apiece, even at discount prices. Switched to Brita water and "fruit" iced teas, but of course, that won't work in a g&t, will it?

[Stumble]

I keep a 20# co2 tank under the sink. Even had a leak that emptied the bottle over the course of a day. I just can't see it as dangerous. A large enough leak to matter is also large enough to hear. A slow leak is about as dangerous as having an extra person sleeping below.

[HopCar]

I was surprised at how quickly the men I mentioned in a previous post died. Why didn't they just hold their breath and run out? They worked for the fire system company, Surely they knew it was dangerous to stay.


It turns out that CO2, in high enough concentrations, doesn't asphyxiate you. It poisons you, and quickly.

This is from Wikipedia. It rings true to me.

"If carbon dioxide is used, controlled atmosphere killing is not the same as inert gas asphyxia, because carbon dioxide at high concentrations (above 5%) is not biologically inert, but rather is toxic and also produces initial distress in a number of animals species."

The article was about inert gas asphyxiation.
Inert gas asphyxiation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Well maybe not. Again from Wikipedia.

"CO2 is an asphyxiant gas and not classified as toxic or harmful in accordance with Globally Harmonized System of Classification and Labelling of Chemicals standards of United Nations Economic Commission for Europe by using the OECD Guidelines for the Testing of Chemicals. In concentrations up to 1% (10,000 ppm), it will make some people feel drowsy.[83] Concentrations of 7% to 10% may cause suffocation, even in the presence of sufficient oxygen, manifesting as dizziness, headache, visual and hearing dysfunction, and unconsciousness within a few minutes to an hour.[85] The physiological effects of acute carbon dioxide exposure are grouped together under the term hypercapnia, a subset of asphyxiation."


If it suffocates you or poisons you it is still something to be concerned about in a small space such as a boat.

" International Maritime Organization standards also recognize carbon dioxide systems for fire protection of ship holds and engine rooms. Carbon dioxide based fire protection systems have been linked to several deaths, because it can cause suffocation in sufficiently high concentrations. A review of CO2 systems identified 51 incidents between 1975 and the date of the report, causing 72 deaths and 145 injuries.[23]"
Carbon dioxide - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


When Halon fire systems first hit the market they were advertised as safer than CO2 systems because they would put out a fire at concentrations low enough not to hurt a human. If an oversized system is installed, this safety feature goes away.

[neptunesjester]

I've had a good laugh reading this thread. Of all the ways my boat tries to kill me, a CO2 leak from my kegerator seems like the best way to go if it can kill me in under 60 seconds. Sure beats drowning, death from all the carcinogens on this 50 yo boat, or the fact I sleep on top of 400 gallons of petrol at night. Remember, living on a boat is like living how your great grandparents did with the additional risk of drowning in your sleep.

Sent from my SM-P600 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

[Roy M]

Yet another who believes carbon monoxide is the same as carbon dioxide. Oh well.......

[Steve Bean]

Off-topic or not, I just read about two people killed and twelve hospitalized in New Jersey by CO in a building. Cause not known yet.

[Sondor]

Given the concern expressed in this thread, I feel like a right proper Boy-Scout by posting the MSDS for this product: US/Canada MSDS Soda-Stream Co2

And for our friend's down where the toilets flush the "wrong" way: AU Dangerous Goods Declaration

...This discussion reminds me of the possibility of drowning in a bathtub only filled 4". True. It *can* happen. So, as long as you don't find yourself passed-out in a bowl-full of Co2, there's no need to fret. Enjoy those G&T's...

PS: The MSDS rightly points out the more likely hazard being frost-bite from gas rapidly escaping and the container freezing. Don't get any ideas if you lack air-con in the tropics!

[IdoraKeeper]

Dockhead, if you would just stick to beer you can forget the CO2 concerns... Right now I am concerned with ozone concentrations myself (not joking). I am experimenting with an electrostatic air cleaner on board and one of the by products of the air cleaner is ozone. Any body have ideas about ozone concentrations?

[roverhi]

The body does not sense a lack of oxygen but believe it's a surplus of CO2 that triggers breathing. Unlike CO, CO2 shouldn't sneak up on you as you'll have distressed breathing way before it reaches a fatal level. The small amount of CO2 in an extinguisher or soda machine shouldn't be an issue even if the bottle had a catastrophic failure. But in any case, plenty of warning if it became an issue.

[44'cruisingcat]

The soda stream cylinders are of pretty decent quality. I think the risk of one failing is low. The risk of more than one failing would be infinitesimal.


A sodastream cylinder holds 60 litres of CO2. (At atmospheric pressure) So it could only raise the concentration of about 1200 litres of air to dangerous levels. Probably barely enough to fill your bilges.


A very, very low risk IMO.

[Connected]

We have a soda stream on board and have no concerns. I'm more likely to be mortally affected by whatever I mix with my carbonated water than I am by any carbon dioxide in the environment.

Wonderful though to see the Bohr effect getting a mention on the CF. Anyone want to have a go at the Hamburger effect?



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[exMaggieDrum]

I wasn't going to encourage all of you nasty folks on this thread but find a I can't help myself. (It must be catching!)

Found this little gem of a product: www.bohreffect.com

Caution: use only out doors with "adequate" ventilation. Notice they do not offer a head or face product.

BTW - just how pure is the CO2 from paintball distributors? Has it been degreased etc.? I'd think you'd want to know before drinking it everyday. But it might enhance the burping. Myself - I'm addicted to Cokes, especially the carbonation. But my limit is one a day. I don't have a beer limit per se.

In all seriousness though, CO2 is a serious issue in general although I can't say I would worry about a few little cartridges in the cabinet. I do worry about my Halon system and if it goes off I hope I can get away from the engine room fast enough. If it were a CO2 system I would worry more. Beer chemistry is not the same as respiratory chemistry. Google has made more fools intelligent than any device since the Ouija board (although a calculator in the hands of an engineer is a close second).

Just in jest as I hope some of the posts here are.