Risks of CO2 on Board

[hellosailor]

From numerous unsubstantiated and unverified internet posts, mainly discussing the exorbitant prices of a certain "soda" machine refills...Apparently the paintball suppliers typically use the same "food" grade CO2 that is sold to every pizzeria and restaurant with a soda tap. Mainly because that's the big market.


You'd think a cheaper grade of CO2 with oil contamination was better for paintball guns, but market economics say food grade is one size to fit all.


$20 "soda" cartridge swap at the retail stores, $3 paintball refill, same size/grams.

[accomplice]

Originally Posted by roverhi

The body does not sense a lack of oxygen but believe it's a surplus of CO2 that triggers breathing. Unlike CO, CO2 shouldn't sneak up on you as you'll have distressed breathing way before it reaches a fatal level. The small amount of CO2 in an extinguisher or soda machine shouldn't be an issue even if the bottle had a catastrophic failure. But in any case, plenty of warning if it became an issue.

Absolutely true, unless you're unfortunate enough to have COPD, in which case breathing isn't triggered by surplus CO2. But yes, you don't have to worry about silent asphixiation.

On the other hand...I've heard stories of people transporting CO2 tanks in their car and when they went around a corner the valve took a hit and ruptured. The rapidly escaping and evaporating CO2 filled the car with a dense fog and presented a safety problem.

I've made my own sodastream using a 20# CO2 canister, a few fittings, and a couple of old 2-liter soda bottles with tire valves stuck into the caps. The trick is to have the water cold (absorbs more CO2). I always shook it hard, too, while carbonating.

I would get my CO2 canister filled at a medical gas supply place for a few bucks ($10?) and it lasts YEARS.

I've heard of folks taking the valve from a sodastream refill and fitting it to their 20# CO2 tank and still using the sodastream dispenser. If you look around the web you may see mention of this.

[IdoraKeeper]

In Dockhead's case it is essential that the soda and tonic be there. Otherwise the size of the Gin tank must be increased (which could cause weight and balance issues or even stability difficulties).

[matureee]

The biggest risk of soda syphon sized CO2 cartridges on your boat is that you get involved in this discussion. By the way what fills your lifejacket?

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ys-143146.html

[belizesailor]

Originally Posted by matureee

The biggest risk of soda syphon sized CO2 cartridges on your boat is that you get involved in this discussion. By the way what fills your lifejacket?

...

OMG! Im throwing all my self-inflate PFDs and spare CO2 cartridges overboard tomorrow! ;-)

[Clamdigger]

Originally Posted by meirriba

I think that some of the comments mistook CO2 for CO which is really dangerous as opposed to CO2 that is dangerous only in high concentration and non ventilated space.

IT'S NOT A JOKE OR LAUGHING MATTER!

A very close friend of mine died from suffication caused by Carbon Monoxide Poisoning onboard his boat.

He had been stranded aground near shore on the Indian River (ICW) for a few weeks aboard his steel boat. At the time I had a 25ft sloop with just an 8 HP Mariner on it. I was bringing him back and forth to the boat daily as he worked to lighten ship, and move items from one area to another in order to see if the tide would float him off. Nothing was working, we did not know anyone else in the area who could assist with their boats (though we both asked a few different boaters over the course of the time from when it got stuck, but no one would assist us.) I tried a few times on different days with him to tow it off with my boat. But his boat was much heavier and just swung my boat side to side with my 8HP outboard.

On this last day we had eaten some dinner I brought out to him, and we tried one more time with me tying my boat alongside his in a 'hip tow' configuration, as mine was shoal draft 18". It never budged, probably all those powerboat wakes that kept wallowing it in all night as we were not there up until this fateful night. I left to go get us some supplies for the following day case of water, ice, munchies,lines, larger anchor (thinking we might winch it out).. Little did I know that he would try and use a pump down in the bilges ALONE! Even though the companionway hatch was open, the companionway doors off, foward hatch open THERE WAS NOT ENOUGH AIR FLOW! THE NEXT MORNING I HAD LOST A GOOD FRIEND TO AN INVISIBLE KILLER C0. The medical folks say he never knew what over came him, or if he did COULD NOT HELP HIMSELF enough to move once it took effect. I will never forget my friend Eugene, and remind other boaters of his senseless passing whenever the chance arises.

[Clamdigger]

Originally Posted by belizesailor

Both can kill you quickly in the right concentrations, but potentially fatal concentration levels for CO are dramatically lower. At concentrations of only 12,800 PPM CO is potentially fatal in 1-3 minutes.

Auto forward to correct web page at InspectAPedia.com

Something to think about next time your inspecting your exhaust system.

CO is actively toxic in that it bonds with the oxygen in your bloodstream. CO2 is not actively toxic, it just displaces the oxygen you need.

As you've calculated already, your gonna need a lot more volume than a soda stream cartridge or two fully discharging to be a realistic safety hazard.

CO IS THE DEADLY INVISIBLE GAS THAT KILLS WITHOUT WARNING.

[cal40john]

Sorry for your loss, but this thread is about carbon dioxide not carbon monoxide. The person you quoted was saying that maybe some of the people responding were confused that this thread was about carbon monoxide and were giving advise based on the much higher risks associated with carbon monoxide.

I don't think anyone has said carbon monoxide poisoning is a laughing matter, or has tried to understate the risks of carbon monoxide.

They are debating what is the risk of carbon DIoxide poisoning.

Originally Posted by Clamdigger

IT'S NOT A JOKE OR LAUGHING MATTER!

A very close friend of mine died from suffication caused by Carbon Monoxide Poisoning onboard his boat.

He had been stranded aground near shore on the Indian River (ICW) for a few weeks aboard his steel boat. At the time I had a 25ft sloop with just an 8 HP Mariner on it. I was bringing him back and forth to the boat daily as he worked to lighten ship, and move items from one area to another in order to see if the tide would float him off. Nothing was working, we did not know anyone else in the area who could assist with their boats (though we both asked a few different boaters over the course of the time from when it got stuck, but no one would assist us.) I tried a few times on different days with him to tow it off with my boat. But his boat was much heavier and just swung my boat side to side with my 8HP outboard.

On this last day we had eaten some dinner I brought out to him, and we tried one more time with me tying my boat alongside his in a 'hip tow' configuration, as mine was shoal draft 18". It never budged, probably all those powerboat wakes that kept wallowing it in all night as we were not there up until this fateful night. I left to go get us some supplies for the following day case of water, ice, munchies,lines, larger anchor (thinking we might winch it out).. Little did I know that he would try and use a pump down in the bilges ALONE! Even though the companionway hatch was open, the companionway doors off, foward hatch open THERE WAS NOT ENOUGH AIR FLOW! THE NEXT MORNING I HAD LOST A GOOD FRIEND TO AN INVISIBLE KILLER C0. The medical folks say he never knew what over came him, or if he did COULD NOT HELP HIMSELF enough to move once it took effect. I will never forget my friend Eugene, and remind other boaters of his senseless passing whenever the chance arises.

[Clamdigger]

Granted, but I had not figured out how to attach the article and just used that post.

I understand the OP was about carbonation and CO2 containers onboard; but thought it was as good a place for a reminder as any other thread. If another boater reads it and it saves their or someone else's life, I'm grateful.

Not trying to hijack the soda thread...life's too short for that in my book.

[senormechanico]

If you think carbon monoxide or carbon dioxide is lethal, just do a search for
DIHYDROGEN MONOXIDE !!!
If inhaled in excessive amounts,it can kill in seconds!!

Facts About Dihydrogen Monoxide

And then there is this:


Dihydrogen monoxide is colorless, odorless, tasteless, and kills uncounted thousands of people every year. Most of these deaths are caused by accidental inhalation of DHMO, but the dangers of dihydrogen monoxide do not end there. Prolonged exposure to its solid form causes severe tissue damage. Symptoms of DHMO ingestion can include excessive sweating and urination, and possibly a bloated feeling, nausea, vomiting and body electrolyte imbalance. For those who have become dependent, DHMO withdrawal means certain death.



Despite the known dangers of DHMO, it continues to be used daily by industry, government, and even in private homes across the U.S. and worldwide. Some of the well-known uses of Dihydrogen Monoxide are:

• as an industrial solvent and coolant,
• in nuclear power plants,
• by the U.S. Navy in the propulsion systems of some older vessels,
• by elite athletes to improve performance,
• in the production of (polystyrene),
• in biological and chemical weapons manufacture,
• as a spray-on fire suppressant and retardant...

Polystyrene Plastic is Safe for Its Intended Use - Debunk the Dihydrogen Monoxide Rumors

There are Petitions to get it BANNED !!!

Ban DiHydrogen Oxide Petition

[Dockhead]

To be killed by CO2 requires a higher concentration of the gas than CO, but CO2 can kill in seconds if the required concentration is present.

Here is a case of a person killed by a leaking CO2 line to a soda machine: Police: Carbon dioxide led to death in McDonald's bathroom - CNN.com

What is concerning for us is that in contrast to CO, which is not heavier than air and therefore disperses, CO2 is very heavy and will collect in a boat hull and will not disperse, like propane, except more so. So what may be completely harmless on land, since it will disperse, could be lethal in a boat -- think about propane or gasoline vapors, neither of which we worry about much on land.

The quantity of CO2 in a lifejacket cartridge (or soda syphon cartridge) is not enough to do any harm, as you need 5% or so to make a lethal concentration, but larger quantities of CO2 on board should be considered dangerous.

[Zanshin]

Originally Posted by David M

...What I am getting at is that you will know it if you are breathing CO2 long before it becomes a suffocant. Even if you are sleeping, the pain in your sinuses would wake you up long before you would suffocate.

That is, unfortunately, quite incorrect. Wine makers know this all too well, frequently cellars are used in the fermentation process and fatalities were not rare before the advent and common use of electronic alarms. A small bird or other small animal was/is used as CO2 detectors and winemakers learn to flee at the first sign of dizziness. CO2 is dangerous at far lower levels of concentration than what you experienced with the one whiff.