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Old 28-12-2014, 22:18   #1
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responsibility

So I'm listining to a person today that came into the store bitching about a channel marker that wasnt in the right place and he ran aground..
And a lady later in the day returning a floation vest for kayaking and raising hell because it chaffed her underarms..
And then on the CF forum this evening about a automatic safety shut-off on an stove, and a couple days ago about the ondemand hot water system not being approved for safety..

And I'm wondering people, when did it become someone elses responsibility to make sure we didnt do something stupid to ourselves??????

I was always taught that if you kick a dog, be prepaired to get bit, stick your hand in a bee hive and you'll get stung.
And if you cant handle the systems on a boat, or the boat itself, maybe you should get back up on the porch and go back to your knitting..

FLAME ON FOLKS
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Old 28-12-2014, 23:03   #2
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Re: responsibility

Quote:
Originally Posted by Randyonr3 View Post
So I'm listining to a person today that came into the store bitching about a channel marker that wasnt in the right place and he ran aground..
And a lady later in the day returning a floation vest for kayaking and raising hell because it chaffed her underarms..
And then on the CF forum this evening about a automatic safety shut-off on an stove, and a couple days ago about the ondemand hot water system not being approved for safety..

And I'm wondering people, when did it become someone elses responsibility to make sure we didnt do something stupid to ourselves??????

I was always taught that if you kick a dog, be prepaired to get bit, stick your hand in a bee hive and you'll get stung.
And if you cant handle the systems on a boat, or the boat itself, maybe you should get back up on the porch and go back to your knitting..

FLAME ON FOLKS
Geeze, Randy, a bit grumpy today?'

That seemed partly aimed at me, so you have made me feel that I must defend my desire for flame-out shutoffs on my stove. Why do I need them? Because due to the ventilation on our boat, or the design of our marine stove, the bloody burners blow out from time to time. And I don't want to have to hover over the bloody stove full time watching them. And I don't want to wait for the bilge to fill with enough LPG to reach the alarm sensor so that I turn the burner off. That's why... not because I don't understand the systems on my boat, or can't handle it or whatever you were on about. And I don't know how to knit, so can't go back to it.

And to set the stage better, we have an unapproved on demand propane water heater and don't worry about it at all. It's vented, it isn't left running when not in use, and it has flame-out shutoffs too! Been working on this boat for over twenty years now (installed by the PO).

So, where am I failing to take personal responsibility?

Jim
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Old 28-12-2014, 23:10   #3
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Re: responsibility

Well, the devil in the deep blue is in the details, and it's hard to tell from these examples whether the people did stupid things, or whether they really had justification. It could take more skill or knowledge than many people might reasonably be expected to have to know if some systems are engineered and installed properly, depending upon just what went wrong how. And, then on the other, stupider side, lots of people turn their brains off when they get on the water. So, does the evidence support a verdict of stupid or unfortunate?
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Old 28-12-2014, 23:54   #4
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Seems reasonable that "aids to navigation" should do that. Seems reasonable that pants that are too short and life jackets that chafe should be exchangeable.

To err is human; to die from it is a tragedy. I like rules and devices that keep my human-ness from killing me. And I reduce risk when I can, like not driving a Smart Car at 70 on the freeway like the guy I saw last week. He can take that risk if he wants, but I prefer my Yukon XL at those speeds.

Fortunately, many mistakes can be fixed with money, like my iPhone going overboard. I pay several such "stupid taxes" every year, and I try to be graceful about it. The operative word is "try"...

And I don't get upset about other people's choices or mistakes. Managing my own and helping my family with theirs gives me enough to worry about.
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Old 29-12-2014, 00:05   #5
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Re: responsibility

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Originally Posted by Sailor Bob 350 View Post
I like rules and devices that keep my human-ness from killing me. And I reduce risk when I can, like not driving a Smart Car at 70 on the freeway like the guy I saw last week. He can take that risk if he wants, but I prefer my Yukon XL at those speeds.
This might require an entirely different debate about who is, or isn't, being responsible. The most responsible guy on the road is driving the heaviest vehicle...

I think everyone's values will vary on this one!
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Old 29-12-2014, 00:08   #6
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Re: responsibility

I like that it was the channel markers fault. I need to remember that for next time. Alas, when I run aground, which I have many times and will again too, well its the blondes fault.

There is so much talk about safety and if something is certified or not. Folks were taking about LED bulbs and tricolors. Yes the nav lights installed on boats need to be certified by the manufacturer that they actually meet the colreg requirements. That is a requirement by the coast guard for manufactures to comply with. Which they do.... in a lab.

Once installed on a boat, month after month the lens gets dusty, dirty, wires corrode, contacts oxidize. Odds are few actually would pass the certification a year after install. So the question is not was the light certified, but when was the last time, you cleaned the bulb, lens, contacts, checked the volts and amp draw at each lamp and light output against parametric date for the lamp.

A instant water heater has tons more safeties on it then the typical marine water heater. Most marine water heaters have a single non-adjustable thermostat and a single over temp device. Both of which may have a +/-10 -15% temperature variance when new. Perhaps 10% of T&P reliefs will not open at their rated temperature or pressure when new. Let alone after 5 or 10 years or more. That little lever on the T&P relief on every US water heater is there for testing. But no one tests them.

Much like circuit breakers, which should be switched on an off monthly to keep the thermal element from taking a set. Not even EE's do that, well not many....

There is a whole bunch of safety items that in a perfect world will work perfectly, day in and day out. But I don't live in a perfect world. So I know to not assume that something is true or safe, just because it's certified that it performed well in a lab once, years ago. I've seen way too many things over the years that were certified, that were so much junk, or needed maintenance to actually maintain certification.

My anchor light is home made and lacks all certifications. But it's bright as hell and down low where folks will see it. It also makes a dandy cockpit light. The coasties that have passed by my boat at night have never once stopped to question it either.

My vented propane cabin heater is a kludged together affair, yet I've calculated the air flow in the vent to verify the draw is adequate for the heat output.

Having a wee bit of an engineering background, and having read all the various electric, gas, plumbing codes as well as a fair bit of 33CFR and 46 CFR , and tons of design manuals over the years, I can make detailed technical decisions about how the systems on my boat work to keep the boat and myself safe. I do that for large buildings too.

Sometimes I disagree with parts of the codes, various bits of ABYC, for example. It's a good code, with the intent of keeping folk safe. But there are just a few things I'm not 100% wild about in it.

The ABYC bit about AC ground connected to DC ground is one such part. It works perfect in a perfect world, but does not allow for an imperfect world, where the shore outlet or another boats wiring is backwards. Which happens all too often. For that reason, my AC ground is NOT connected to DC ground. Not even at the battery charger, which is a common point on many newer chargers.

Unlike many here, my boat is my only home and there is no plan B, if it sinks, or burns to the water line. I of course have plans A,B,C and D should a fire start or water starts rising.

Generally, plan D involves a whole lot of screaming. Plans A and B, generally are a bit more proactive. Plan C puts the cat in the kayak and me, in the gumby suit. Which reminds me that I need to change the batteries in the strobes, attched to each life vest again.
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Old 29-12-2014, 00:24   #7
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Re: responsibility

I always break that word down into;
'Response' and 'Ability'
Never thinking that I can transfer that to others.

FYI anyone who depends on a floating navigational marker for positional safety.... Is a fool!
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Old 29-12-2014, 18:16   #8
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Re: responsibility

Channel markers are aids to navigation,
not substitutes for same.
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Old 29-12-2014, 22:20   #9
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Yes, and charts, GPS, sextants and depth finders are also just aids to navigation, so only a fool would rely on them.

Seems to me the name "channel marker" should have some meaning? Otherwise they are just floating Christmas ornaments.
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Old 29-12-2014, 22:52   #10
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Re: responsibility

Every professional mariner is taught that floating navigational markers can be dragged out of position by heavy weather, or collision with a barge etc..... So is never used to fix a position.
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Old 29-12-2014, 23:02   #11
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Re: responsibility







Quote:
Originally Posted by Randyonr3 View Post
So I'm listining to a person today that came into the store bitching about a channel marker that wasnt in the right place and he ran aground..
And a lady later in the day returning a floation vest for kayaking and raising hell because it chaffed her underarms..
And then on the CF forum this evening about a automatic safety shut-off on an stove, and a couple days ago about the ondemand hot water system not being approved for safety..

And I'm wondering people, when did it become someone elses responsibility to make sure we didnt do something stupid to ourselves??????

I was always taught that if you kick a dog, be prepaired to get bit, stick your hand in a bee hive and you'll get stung.
And if you cant handle the systems on a boat, or the boat itself, maybe you should get back up on the porch and go back to your knitting..

FLAME ON FOLKS
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Old 29-12-2014, 23:07   #12
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Re: responsibility

CS,

I don't know whether to believe everything you say, or, nothing you say??????

I'm not doubting ya, I am just confused.

Lloyd

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailorchic34 View Post
I like that it was the channel markers fault. I need to remember that for next time. Alas, when I run aground, which I have many times and will again too, well its the blondes fault.

There is so much talk about safety and if something is certified or not. Folks were taking about LED bulbs and tricolors. Yes the nav lights installed on boats need to be certified by the manufacturer that they actually meet the colreg requirements. That is a requirement by the coast guard for manufactures to comply with. Which they do.... in a lab.

Once installed on a boat, month after month the lens gets dusty, dirty, wires corrode, contacts oxidize. Odds are few actually would pass the certification a year after install. So the question is not was the light certified, but when was the last time, you cleaned the bulb, lens, contacts, checked the volts and amp draw at each lamp and light output against parametric date for the lamp.

A instant water heater has tons more safeties on it then the typical marine water heater. Most marine water heaters have a single non-adjustable thermostat and a single over temp device. Both of which may have a +/-10 -15% temperature variance when new. Perhaps 10% of T&P reliefs will not open at their rated temperature or pressure when new. Let alone after 5 or 10 years or more. That little lever on the T&P relief on every US water heater is there for testing. But no one tests them.

Much like circuit breakers, which should be switched on an off monthly to keep the thermal element from taking a set. Not even EE's do that, well not many....

There is a whole bunch of safety items that in a perfect world will work perfectly, day in and day out. But I don't live in a perfect world. So I know to not assume that something is true or safe, just because it's certified that it performed well in a lab once, years ago. I've seen way too many things over the years that were certified, that were so much junk, or needed maintenance to actually maintain certification.

My anchor light is home made and lacks all certifications. But it's bright as hell and down low where folks will see it. It also makes a dandy cockpit light. The coasties that have passed by my boat at night have never once stopped to question it either.

My vented propane cabin heater is a kludged together affair, yet I've calculated the air flow in the vent to verify the draw is adequate for the heat output.

Having a wee bit of an engineering background, and having read all the various electric, gas, plumbing codes as well as a fair bit of 33CFR and 46 CFR , and tons of design manuals over the years, I can make detailed technical decisions about how the systems on my boat work to keep the boat and myself safe. I do that for large buildings too.

Sometimes I disagree with parts of the codes, various bits of ABYC, for example. It's a good code, with the intent of keeping folk safe. But there are just a few things I'm not 100% wild about in it.

The ABYC bit about AC ground connected to DC ground is one such part. It works perfect in a perfect world, but does not allow for an imperfect world, where the shore outlet or another boats wiring is backwards. Which happens all too often. For that reason, my AC ground is NOT connected to DC ground. Not even at the battery charger, which is a common point on many newer chargers.

Unlike many here, my boat is my only home and there is no plan B, if it sinks, or burns to the water line. I of course have plans A,B,C and D should a fire start or water starts rising.

Generally, plan D involves a whole lot of screaming. Plans A and B, generally are a bit more proactive. Plan C puts the cat in the kayak and me, in the gumby suit. Which reminds me that I need to change the batteries in the strobes, attched to each life vest again.
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Old 29-12-2014, 23:11   #13
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Re: responsibility

seems like tonnage rules.

But what about rules of the road?

And, how do the courts fit into this,...tonnage rules?

Lloyd

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brob2 View Post
This might require an entirely different debate about who is, or isn't, being responsible. The most responsible guy on the road is driving the heaviest vehicle...

I think everyone's values will vary on this one!
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Old 29-12-2014, 23:27   #14
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Re: responsibility

Jim and Ann,

I hope you are not paying insurance premiums!

If you are, you might want to go to PACER, register, pay the fee, then look up you insurance comany as defendant.

Read the case law, on the decisions, that they were excused from providing the insurance money, on the premiums paid.

It will open your eyes.

Not only to how your negotiated contract with your own insurer, might not be valued.

But how most of the Admiralty claims, for similar claims have been denied, by the courts, to other insureds.

For some of the most simplest of claims.

Lloyd


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
Geeze, Randy, a bit grumpy today?'

That seemed partly aimed at me, so you have made me feel that I must defend my desire for flame-out shutoffs on my stove. Why do I need them? Because due to the ventilation on our boat, or the design of our marine stove, the bloody burners blow out from time to time. And I don't want to have to hover over the bloody stove full time watching them. And I don't want to wait for the bilge to fill with enough LPG to reach the alarm sensor so that I turn the burner off. That's why... not because I don't understand the systems on my boat, or can't handle it or whatever you were on about. And I don't know how to knit, so can't go back to it.

And to set the stage better, we have an unapproved on demand propane water heater and don't worry about it at all. It's vented, it isn't left running when not in use, and it has flame-out shutoffs too! Been working on this boat for over twenty years now (installed by the PO).

So, where am I failing to take personal responsibility?

Jim
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Old 29-12-2014, 23:42   #15
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Re: responsibility

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingCloud1937 View Post
Jim and Ann,

I hope you are not paying insurance premiums!

If you are, you might want to go to PACER, register, pay the fee, then look up you insurance comany as defendant.

Read the case law, on the decisions, that they were excused from providing the insurance money, on the premiums paid.

It will open your eyes.

Not only to how your negotiated contract with your own insurer, might not be valued.

But how most of the Admiralty claims, for similar claims have been denied, by the courts, to other insureds.

For some of the most simplest of claims.

Lloyd
LLoyd, I am a bit confused here.

What claims am I likely to have denied? I'm not gonna pay fees and spend time researching when you seem to have all the answers... why not just tell me where I am straying?

If it relates to claims for my boat being blown up from a propane leak, OK, I'm ready to take that risk. If it is for something else, please explain what risks I am taking, and how I might mitigate them.

Oh... I only carry third party (liability for yanks) insurance. I've been willing to take responsibility for my own losses ever since we left 28 years ago. Are you telling me that some LPG installation will negate that insurance if I cause a casualty loss for someone (other that from LPG explosion)? That, on the surface, seems unlikely. If it is something else, please explain so that I can do something about it.

Jim
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