Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 01-01-2015, 21:00   #76
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Amherst, MA
Boat: Catalina 350
Posts: 43
Any rational novice sailor self-limits their activities to stay within the safe boundaries of their ability and knowledge.

When at age 14 I paddled a sunfish out 30 feet from shore on a calm day to see if I could make it go, I knew enough to wear a lifejacket and stay near shore. I didn't need a 500 ton master's license to be safe and responsible.

Most of us learn in increments, slowly expanding our knowledge and abilities to serve our increasing need for adventure. This leads to more experience, turning what was at first a big challenge into a rewarding success that makes us want to do more. It is also why so many of us have a passion for sailing that far outlasts most other hobbies.

Do some people get in over their heads? Sure. Are some just reckless? Unfortunately, yes. But that is true about any human endeavor - driving, sky-diving, skiing, rock climbing, careers, marriages and parenting, to name a few.

Safety and self-reliance are obviously key aspects of the sailing life, and we should nurture and encourage using the utmost care. But if we ridicule those who make mistakes or show poor judgment, such as the fellow who ran aground and blamed the buoy, we chase people away when we should try to help them learn. We also make sailing seem like an exclusive club that only welcomes experts, which is not at all the case.
__________________

__________________
Sailor Bob 350 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-01-2015, 21:28   #77
CF Adviser
 
Pelagic's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2007
Boat: Van Helleman Schooner 65ft StarGazer
Posts: 6,892
Re: responsibility

Easier to clarify within your post


[QUOTE=sailorchic34;1712806]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelagic View Post
Hiding behind the percepted double safety standard of pleasure/commercial will in my opinion only lead to mandatory pleasure operator licensing and increased regulation by the clerics of this world.
/QUOTE]

LOL, Dear me, You do realize the for many things, there are different levels of code/ licensing requirements. Such as different code requirements for residential and commercial construction.

Some things are allowed in residential construction that is not allowed in commercial construction.

Yes but they are not moving vehicles interacting with each other



Same goes for the different codes/licensing requirements for a commercial truck driver, compared to the wimpy licensing requirements for the folks in cars.


They do follow the same basic road safety rules and initial drivers licensing....
But just like boats....higher tonnage requires higher education and safety proficiency

In every part of life there are different codes for different levels of use.

Docking a 50,000 ton ship is somewhat different then docking a 50 foot yacht. Same goes for the electrical, plumbing and fire systems used in yachts and ships.

Not talking about ship handling or management but basic seamanship that each YACHT captain should take responsibility for before buying and playing with others on board who are depending on their basic competence and awareness.

In the USA 46CFR is the ships code for all commercial vessels and inspected yachts for charter. It does not at all apply to smaller pleasure craft. Just ask the coast guard. Two different things with two separate sets of code.

Of course the first are for hire with higher potential for damage and legal liabilities from contractual obligations.

A residential kitchen has different code requirements then a commercial kitchen. I know, for I've designed both.

Again higher safety and hygiene standards because of higher liability

Its no different in boats. Yes we could make it mandatory that everyone comply with the strictest code possible. That would add a small amount of additional safety, but at great expense. Which is why there are slightly different levels of training between say a ships master and a ASA 101 or between a private pilot and commercial pilot.

Not saying a yachtie needs to follow a commercial syllabus but talking about some of the newbies out there who feel they will learn navigational safety as they progress without a concentrated effort.


In my opinion...GPS/ECS have encouraged a plug and play mentality in the next generation of pleasure boaters.

Licensing for pleasure boat operators starts in California in 2018.

I think you just confirmed my point that without self regulation, the clerics will do it for us.

I guess it was about time..
__________________

__________________
Pelagic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-01-2015, 22:41   #78
Moderator
 
sailorchic34's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: SF Bay Area
Boat: Islander 34
Posts: 4,815
Re: responsibility

Training and skills all come with time. Though the level of skill varies from person to person based on a multitude of things. As with all things, people don't have the same skill sets even with the same training.

I still remember the first time I docked a tayana 37 and everybody was out looking at that farce. I still got docked without hitting another boat. So not pretty then. Now, no one blinks an eye when I dock. I don't use fenders now either, not till after the boat is alongside

Everyone runs aground sometime, its all part of boating, practically a rite of passage.

GPS is a lovely tool that sailors of 100 years ago would kill to have. Nothing at all wrong in using it, some or all the time. Its a tool, like a sextant, or astrolabe before it. Myself, I would think nothing of doing a coastal trip with just a chartplotter which I have done a few time too. I do have several backups along with a sextant and reduction program on my hp50g.

As to licensing in california, that is what California is renown for and not at all surprising to anyone living here. Based on what I've read of the licensing requirements, it does not look overly extensive and is aimed more at powerboats and PWC. As with drivers licenses, its a minimum standard. Luckily the California licensing requirement is age based, so, I'll not need to worry about it till 2025. By then the horse may sing.
__________________
sailorchic34 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2015, 08:58   #79
Moderator Emeritus
 
GordMay's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Thunder Bay, Ontario - 48-29N x 89-20W
Boat: (Cruiser Living On Dirt)
Posts: 31,583
Images: 240
Re: responsibility

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailorchic34 View Post
... ABYC requires that the valve on the propane tank be readily assessable. Readily assessable means direct access without opening a door or hatch. Just ask the coast guard about readily assessable. That conflicts with ABYC own codes, which has the tank in a sealed locker in many cases.
According to Transport Canada:
“readily accessible” means capable of being reached easily and safely under emergency conditions without the use of tools.”

According to ABYC:
“Readily Accessible - Capable of being reached quickly and safely for effective use under emergency conditions without the use of tools.”
__________________
Gord May
"If you didn't have the time or money to do it right in the first place, when will you get the time/$ to fix it?"



GordMay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2015, 09:50   #80
Moderator
 
sailorchic34's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: SF Bay Area
Boat: Islander 34
Posts: 4,815
Re: responsibility

Quote:
Originally Posted by GordMay View Post
According to Transport Canada:
“readily accessible” means capable of being reached easily and safely under emergency conditions without the use of tools.”

According to ABYC:
“Readily Accessible - Capable of being reached quickly and safely for effective use under emergency conditions without the use of tools.”
Gordy, Glad to see your keeping me honest.

Per US coast guard:

Each wearable life jacket needs to be "readily accessible." Readily accessible means the life jackets are stowed where they can be easily reached, or are out in the open ready for wear. Readily accessible life jackets cannot be in protective coverings or under lock and key.
__________________
sailorchic34 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2015, 13:11   #81
Certifiable Refitter/Senior Wannbe
 
Wotname's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: South of 43 S, Australia
Boat: Van DeStat Super Dogger 31'
Posts: 7,331
Re: responsibility

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailorchic34 View Post
Training and skills all come with time. Though the level of skill varies from person to person based on a multitude of things. As with all things, people don't have the same skill sets even with the same training.

I still remember the first time I docked a tayana 37 and everybody was out looking at that farce. I still got docked without hitting another boat. So not pretty then. Now, no one blinks an eye when I dock. I don't use fenders now either, not till after the boat is alongside

Everyone runs aground sometime, its all part of boating, practically a rite of passage.

.............
SC, this sums up the the whole thread I think.

Did you blame the dock that first time or did you take responsibility and teach your self how to do it better.

Ditto with running aground.

I suspect you are very responsible as I also suspect most CF members are; however unfortunately there are enough waterway users who aren't and that paints us all in a bad colour. This is why I'm with Pelagic with harping on about demanding that irresponsible boaters shape up or shipout. Note that I have no problem with any who make mistakes because that is often part of the learning curve, just the ones who don't think they have to learn because it was the "xyz's" fault, not theirs.

I am reminded of Arthur Ransome famous quote in "Swallows and Amazons"

BETTER DROWNED THAN DUFFERS IF NOT DUFFERS WON'T DROWN
__________________
All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangereous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. T.E. Lawrence
Wotname is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2015, 14:43   #82
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Amherst, MA
Boat: Catalina 350
Posts: 43
I personally don't feel any other boater's faults make me or any other good boater look bad. They make themselves look bad, that's it.

Nor do I think "shape up or ship out" ever motivated anyone to improve, it just shuts them down (ask any parent of a teenager).

With encouragement, kindhearted advice and accessible training and education, some will improve. This forum is a great resource for them.

But some are just jerks, a malady that unfortunately seems incurable. We can't remove them from boating any more than we can remove them from anywhere else in life. I'm sure living life as a jerk must be awful, so they provide their own just reward.

Railing against them is as likely to change their ways as complaining about a misplaced buoy is likely to move it back into place.
__________________
Sailor Bob 350 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2015, 16:58   #83
CF Adviser
 
Pelagic's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2007
Boat: Van Helleman Schooner 65ft StarGazer
Posts: 6,892
Re: responsibility

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sailor Bob 350 View Post
But some are just jerks, a malady that unfortunately seems incurable. We can't remove them from boating any more than we can remove them from anywhere else in life. I'm sure living life as a jerk must be awful, so they provide their own just reward.

Railing against them is as likely to change their ways as complaining about a misplaced buoy is likely to move it back into place.
LOL....Too true and I guess the genesis of the OP's rant.

The frustrating part is that the end result will be evermore regulations for yachts and their insurance provider by nanny states and copycat rules by less developed nations for income generation.

I was always attrated to a career at sea because she was a harsh mistress that demanded responsibility and punished the lazy.

It was up to me to absorb the lessons of those who went before me and to ignore the pretenders to King Neptune's domain who dangled gadgets rather than knowledge in front of me.

Obladee Oblada...life goes on....
__________________
Pelagic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2015, 03:08   #84
Certifiable Refitter/Senior Wannbe
 
Wotname's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: South of 43 S, Australia
Boat: Van DeStat Super Dogger 31'
Posts: 7,331
Re: responsibility

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sailor Bob 350 View Post
I personally don't feel any other boater's faults make me or any other good boater look bad. They make themselves look bad, that's it.

Nor do I think "shape up or ship out" ever motivated anyone to improve, it just shuts them down (ask any parent of a teenager).

With encouragement, kindhearted advice and accessible training and education, some will improve. This forum is a great resource for them.

But some are just jerks, a malady that unfortunately seems incurable. We can't remove them from boating any more than we can remove them from anywhere else in life. I'm sure living life as a jerk must be awful, so they provide their own just reward.

Railing against them is as likely to change their ways as complaining about a misplaced buoy is likely to move it back into place.
SB350, you and I are probably pretty much on the same page. What I'm labelling as an irresponsible boater, you are labelling as a jerk. These are the ones I like to see shape up or ship out.

As for anyone else, I'm always happy to help them out if/when they make mistakes just as others have helped me over the years.

Alas, you are correct in your last sentence .
__________________
All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangereous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. T.E. Lawrence
Wotname is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2015, 03:22   #85
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: New Mexico, USA
Boat: International Etchells USA 125 Black Magic, Santana 20 475 Ghost, Hobie 33 3100 Bruja, dinghies,
Posts: 1,118
Re: responsibility

As an aside, is California USA actually doing real licensing, or just implementing a boater safety education requirement, similar to what most other US states already have? These are somewhat different things. I know that Virginia, for one US state, is working on making their boater safety requirement apply to all ages.

If sailors in the Caribbean had to meet the same sobriety requirements as US pilots and commercial drivers (0.02% BAC and strongly recommended 24 hours "bottle to throttle" for pilots), who would buy all the rum? What would happen to all the silly parties? How would people get into the mindset that helming a yacht is a privilege and responsibility and not a fantasy escape?
__________________
Pat, from the Desert Sea http://desertsea.blogspot.com
rgscpat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2015, 05:42   #86
Moderator Emeritus
 
GordMay's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Thunder Bay, Ontario - 48-29N x 89-20W
Boat: (Cruiser Living On Dirt)
Posts: 31,583
Images: 240
Re: responsibility

Quote:
Originally Posted by rgscpat View Post
... If sailors in the Caribbean had to meet the same sobriety requirements as US pilots and commercial drivers (0.02% BAC and strongly recommended 24 hours "bottle to throttle" for pilots)...
The use of alcohol and drugs by pilots is regulated by FAR 91.17.
Among other provisions, this regulation states that no person may operate or attempt to operate an aircraft:
• within 8 hours of having consumed alcohol*
• while under the influence of alcohol
• with a blood alcohol content of 0.04% or greater**
• while using any drug that adversely affects safety

* Although the FAA has an 8 hour timeframe from “bottle to throttle,” most major airlines have a more restrictive rule, usually requiring at least 12 hours.
Eight hours from “bottle to throttle” does not mean you are in the best physical condition to fly, or that your blood alcohol concentration is below the legal limits.
A more conservative approach is to wait 24 hours from the last use of alcohol before flying. This is especially true if intoxication occurred or if you plan to fly IFR.

** The number of serious errors committed by pilots dramatically increases at or above concentrations of 0.04% blood alcohol.
This is not to say that problems don’t occur below this value. Some studies have shown decrements in pilot performance with blood alcohol concentrations as low as 0.025%.
__________________
Gord May
"If you didn't have the time or money to do it right in the first place, when will you get the time/$ to fix it?"



GordMay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2015, 09:21   #87
Registered User
 
rognvald's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Summer: In the land of Wooly Mammoths
Boat: Pearson 34-II
Posts: 2,252
Images: 2
Re: responsibility

The US Coast Guard Auxiliary teaches several levels of boating classes beginning with Boating Skills and Seamanship through Advanced Navigation. They are taught by competent, serious sailors and provide a wealth of valuable information. When I took my first Navigation/Advanced Navigation course almost 30 years ago, it was taught by a former WWII USN Chief Navigator who was stationed aboard a battleship in the Pacific for the majority of his service. The class was outstanding and the teacher was a valuable resource for his students for years after. Armed with this knowledge(during the time of Loran), we made our first passage to the Virgin Islands using only a sextant and traditional navigation. This information should be required for all recreational boaters(not sextant use) and I believe the number of "incidents" on the water would greatly diminish. A good friend, who also happens to be a recreational pilot, just bought a new 38 foot Searay Sundancer in Naples, Florida. Armed with his chartplotter(of which he has implicit faith), he has run aground several times in the last 4 months and has done over $12K of damage to his boat in the process--the last time blowing out his props/shafts when he hit a sandbar at 25 knots just south of Useppa Island, Florida. Fortunately, no on was hurt. He is a responsible person, but he does not know traditional navigation and relied on his chartplotter, and in this case, rather than his eyes. To be responsible, whether it be in marine repairs or navigation, knowledge is your best friend and will make boating for those around you, safer as well. Good luck and safe sailing.
__________________
"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music."
Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spake Zarathrustra
rognvald is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2015, 09:42   #88
Moderator
 
sailorchic34's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: SF Bay Area
Boat: Islander 34
Posts: 4,815
Re: responsibility

Quote:
Originally Posted by rgscpat View Post
As an aside, is California USA actually doing real licensing, or just implementing a boater safety education requirement, similar to what most other US states already have? These are somewhat different things. I know that Virginia, for one US state, is working on making their boater safety requirement apply to all ages.
There actually is a boater operator card that folks will need to get, but it really is a boater safety ed requirement with an added license. The education requirement is pretty minimum, by my book. They don't even mention anchors. Mainly aimed at the go fast folk and drunk boating.

California moves toward testing boaters for operator’s card - SFGate
__________________
sailorchic34 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2015, 09:52   #89
Moderator
 
sailorchic34's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: SF Bay Area
Boat: Islander 34
Posts: 4,815
Re: responsibility

Quote:
Originally Posted by rognvald View Post
he has run aground several times in the last 4 months and has done over $12K of damage to his boat in the process--the last time blowing out his props/shafts when he hit a sandbar at 25 knots just south of Useppa Island, Florida.
Yes, lots of very skinny water south of Useppa to the Sanibel bridge. Running agound seems to be a common pass time down there. Cough, there was even this blonde chick that ran aground down near Sanibel too. But I was really green and it was my first time at the wheel of a big boat. I'm much better now...
__________________
sailorchic34 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2015, 04:42   #90
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: New Mexico, USA
Boat: International Etchells USA 125 Black Magic, Santana 20 475 Ghost, Hobie 33 3100 Bruja, dinghies,
Posts: 1,118
Re: responsibility

Sailorchic, as you may know but others might not, I believe that California, USA does not actually require any sort of license for recreational boaters, but will be joining the bulk of the US states in implementing boater safety education requirements via requiring boaters to obtain a California Vessel Operator Card, for some boaters beginning on 1 January 2018, and including boaters of all ages, with some exceptions, by 1 January 2025 under Senate Bill 941.
Although passing a boater ed class currently comes with a card showing test completion, it's not specifically a license. It just kind of looks like one, sort of, and is required to be carried by some boaters in many places, along with other paperwork, and even some of the providers sometimes call it a license.
The situation is confused by at least one commercial education provider saying that you can "print out your license" upon passing the test that it offers currently, but it's not actually a license and Boat Ed elsewhere on its web site actually admits, "Who Needs the Card? California does not require a card. You can take this course to save on insurance or to boat in states that require a card." (The part about not requiring a card will change as SB941 is implemented.)
Note that courts in California can order someone violating laws afloat to take a class.
The situation is also slightly confused because, although the new SB941 law is legally in effect, the education and card is not yet phased in as a requirement, and Cal Waterways is still apparently very much developing some of the requirements, such as which courses will meet the new requirement, including courses boaters may have taken before the law's requirements are phased in.

There are some exemptions, besides age, to the education and CVOC requirement that are mentioned in the website, including short-term visitors and regatta participants. Note that many states define a sailboat, even without a motor, as having "mechanical propulsion" or as "motorized craft". Yes, it's weird.

Vessel Operator Card (SB941) Frequently Asked Questions

"Q: Who will be required to have a California Vessel Operator Card (CVOC)?
A: The CVOC requirement will be phased in. On January 1, 2018, all persons 20 years of age and younger who operate any motorized vessel on waterways subject to the jurisdiction of the state of California must have in his or her possession a vessel operator card issued by California State Parks Division of Boating and Waterways (DBW), unless they meet certain exemptions. (Age restrictions for operating a recreational vessel in California still apply. See Harbors and Navigation Code Section 658.5) Each year thereafter, a new age group will be added to those who are required to possess a valid vessel operator card in order to operate a motorized vessel on California waters. In 2025, all persons who operate a vessel on California waters must possess a valid vessel operator card. Once issued, a CVOC remains valid for a boat operator's lifetime."

California does currently have a section of education requirements that define what should be in a boating safety course, and, nationally, the National Association of State Boating Law Administrators defines minimum boating safety education Standards. These are focused on powerboaters, since that's where most accidents happen. Incidentally, there are separate Paddlecraft standards.

Also maybe of interest:

California's Official Boating Safety Course and Online Boating License Exam

Boating Safety Classes and Courses

Boating Safety Course, Boating License Requirements by State
(There's that "License" word which really shouldn't be there... even if to many, it smells like a license or quacks like a license.)
NASBLA
__________________

__________________
Pat, from the Desert Sea http://desertsea.blogspot.com
rgscpat is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Shared Responsibility in Belize? theonecalledtom General Sailing Forum 35 07-06-2014 06:54
Personal Responsibility Puddlefish Off Topic Forum 27 19-05-2010 07:52
Skipper's responsibility sneuman Seamanship & Boat Handling 19 16-08-2008 09:09



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 16:55.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.