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Old 30-12-2014, 19:01   #61
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Re: responsibility

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Originally Posted by garrobito View Post
Incredible! Four days and four pages later we still discuss about a water heater... woowww.. we have a new record...
Happy new year everybody!!
Let's talk about something else and stop arguing about angel's sex...
Gee, that was helpful... if you don't like the subjects that we discuss, either move on to a different thread or make a specific query/comment that advances the discussion in a direction that you like.

As for me, I think we are discussing an arena that many yotties enter: the use of non-marine equipment, and how that affects your responsibilities towards boat, crew and bystanders.

Jim
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Old 30-12-2014, 19:07   #62
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Re: responsibility

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Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
Gee, that was helpful... if you don't like the subjects that we discuss, either move on to a different thread or make a specific query/comment that advances the discussion in a direction that you like.

As for me, I think we are discussing an arena that many yotties enter: the use of non-marine equipment, and how that affects your responsibilities towards boat, crew and bystanders.

Jim
..go trough the forum.. we have thousand discussion about same point.. at the end it's captain responsibility install or not install, use it or not..
..it's the same than discuss about put halogen light at your car.. you can or not, you want or not... but at the end, it's your problem (and your insurance) if you cause an accident because you want to look shiny...
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Old 30-12-2014, 19:14   #63
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Re: responsibility

My main motivation for having a safe propane system has nothing to do with insurance. It's the desire to not be blown to smithereens, or, worse still, survive with 90% third-degree burns, only to die in a burns unit after 3 months of agony.
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Old 30-12-2014, 19:46   #64
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Re: responsibility

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Originally Posted by garrobito View Post
Incredible! Four days and four pages later we still discuss about a water heater... woowww.. we have a new record...
Happy new year everybody!!
Let's talk about something else and stop arguing about angel's sex...
Great input from you this time.
Yep about as helpful and meaningful to others as your signature on a Forum written in English.
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Old 30-12-2014, 20:13   #65
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Re: responsibility

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Yep about as helpful and meaningful to others as your signature on a Forum written in English.
This comment takes you well below his level. It's a signature for God's sake, a representation. C'est ša!.
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Old 30-12-2014, 21:14   #66
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Re: responsibility

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This comment takes you well below his level. It's a signature for God's sake, a representation. C'est ša!.
Thanks for your informed judgement Brob2.
Maybe you read too much into it maybe not.
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Old 30-12-2014, 21:48   #67
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Re: responsibility

So, we can't trust paper charts, electronic charts, GPS, sextant or channel markers....


Makes me glad my boat only draws 1/2 a metre.


But really - if a PFD is sold as being designed for kayaking, then someone buys it to use kayaking, and it proves unsuitable for that use, doesn't the buyer have a right to complain?


I mean how about if a PFD didn't float? Buyer's responsibility?
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Old 30-12-2014, 22:52   #68
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Re: responsibility

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Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
So, we can't trust paper charts, electronic charts, GPS, sextant or channel markers....


Makes me glad my boat only draws 1/2 a metre.


But really - if a PFD is sold as being designed for kayaking, then someone buys it to use kayaking, and it proves unsuitable for that use, doesn't the buyer have a right to complain?


I mean how about if a PFD didn't float? Buyer's responsibility?
In my opinion your comments on the PFD are mostly valid .
But maybe sometimes the circumstances of the purchase and the integrity of the purchaser come into play and I think our retail society has made it too easy to return stuff and often under very flimsy reasons.I recently returned an inverter that did not work at all to one of the big auto shops and the assistant did not even ask why I returned it but simply asked if I wanted an exchange or refund.

PFDs come in pretty standard sizes to fit people in general but few people realise how the PFD will sit and react with their body when paddling and in wet conditions.Some people buy based on cheap and don't get exactly what they want but they do get what they bought and in the case of the PFD it probably will work as a PFD but maybe not fit as they desire.Maybe more research and advice before purchase of some items would help a lot of people.
Now the integrity of the buyer I have a mate who works for one of the big department type outdoors stores and have seen some of the items returned and heard the reasons given for the returns.Some of the items are big ticket numbers and the reasons are often pure fabrication because the purchaser has changed their mind or it was given as a gift used a few times and did not like it.
Just maybe this is the type of responsibility the OP is referring to.
Now Im off to the tackle shop to return $150 worth of rusty fishing lures that I bought 6 months ago that are clearly not fit for purpose as I dragged them behind the boat for hundreds of kilometres and only two of them worked
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Old 31-12-2014, 09:39   #69
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Re: responsibility

There has been some considerable thread drift from the original post by Randy. And, I want to be clear that I do not have a horse in the race in re: what others have done/said. However, Randy, Zee and SC are absolutely correct. We live in a world of diminishing responsibility where it is never our fault, but someone else's. We live in a world when something doesn't function, a lawsuit entails. We live in a world where our lives are run by machines and our brains and intellect follow their prompts without thinking. We live in a world where free thinkers must suffer the heavy burden of keeping pace with the herd as they blunder toward unknown cliffs with the confidence of inclusion. We live in a world of speechless automatons with their faces glued to their cellphones in lieu of human interaction. We live in a world that has changed for the worse as the herd chews their cuds and bellow . . . moooooo . . . mooooooooo. . . mooooooooooooooooooo.
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Old 31-12-2014, 14:39   #70
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If a store will let me return something I didn't like, that's a service to me, and will make me want to shop there. I don't always have time to study up on flashlights or popcorn makers, so being able to reverse a mistake is good for me. Sure, some jerks abuse it, but if we make rules to block the jerks, the good customers lose out. I appreciate a store that errs in favor of the good people.

I suppose we could all cross-reference maps, GPS, and triangulate the proper position of every buoy before we reach it, but that's not the fun and friendly daysail me and my friends look forward to. I'll take my chances the buoys are where they ought to be, and trust that my GPS will reveal a big deviation.

And if a buoy is a little off and I run aground, I'm gonna curse at the buoy. So sue me.

You guys might want to lighten up a little. For most of us it's an enjoyable hobby, not launching the space shuttle.
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Old 01-01-2015, 14:26   #71
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Re: responsibility

Cows moo, but what sounds do lemmings make?

I wonder how hard it would be to come to some sort of consensus on the level of care a reasonably prudent sailor should take in navigating, and how this level of care would vary for different boats, places, and circumstances.

Even for casual day sailing, I'd expect at a minimum some consultation with charts or local knowledge, and would expect a skipper to notice a missing or seriously out of place buoy. But, a more subtle problem, such as a moderate displacement of a buoy, or recent shoaling might well befuddle even a moderately cautious sort of sailor. I don't think we can hold casual amateur pleasure sailors to as high a standard as professional ship officers, and we know that the professionals sometimes also fail in their navigation, despite usually being much better equipped, and with potentially far more disastrous consequences than for most amateurs.
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Old 01-01-2015, 17:20   #72
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Re: responsibility

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Cows moo, but what sounds do lemmings make?
They quietly whisper in unison..."Lem ming aid, Lem ming aid....." Until it becomes a deafening roar...

Seriously I do feel that all skippers should be held to the same standard of responsibility as professionals.

Mistakes happen to everyone but at sea with other people's lives in your hands, being excused because you are legally considered ignorant.... Just sends the wrong message.
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Old 01-01-2015, 18:32   #73
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Re: responsibility

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They quietly whisper in unison..."Lem ming aid, Lem ming aid....." Until it becomes a deafening roar...

Seriously I do feel that all skippers should be held to the same standard of responsibility as professionals.

Mistakes happen to everyone but at sea with other people's lives in your hands, being excused because you are legally considered ignorant.... Just sends the wrong message.
Do we expect recreational drivers to be held to the same standard as professional drivers?
Do we expect recreational pilots to be held to same standard as professional pilots?

I don't know the legal niceties about such things, I think most people do expect the standards to be universal; I know I do. I'm not thinking about licensing or certifications, just the same standard.

More importantly, it isn't so much about what others expect; it is what we should expect of ourselves. If we have crew, guests or have other waterway users nearby, we simply should know what we are doing. It used to be called seamanship () and is (was?) accepted as part of having a nautical heritage.
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Old 01-01-2015, 19:27   #74
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Re: responsibility

Could not have said it any better Wotname

The standard for safe navigation should be the same and I also believe courts should only judge to one standard of a captain's responsibility for safe operations at sea.

Professional Masters differ in that they are trained in areas like Cargo Handling, Ship Master's Business, Safety Codes, Basic Ship Construction, Simulated Electronic Navigation of large Ships, Crew Management of Marine Emergency Duties...etc..etc.. and in higher licences, Legal and Architectural studies.

The basic safe navigation side is the easy part taught in the first 3 months to professional beginners and is certainly a standard that all pleasure skippers could and should achieve thru self study.

Hiding behind the percepted double safety standard of pleasure/commercial will in my opinion only lead to mandatory pleasure operator licensing and increased regulation by the clerics of this world.

I would hate that which is why I give pleasure boaters and racers in particular.... such a hard time over basic seamanship.
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Old 01-01-2015, 20:31   #75
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Re: responsibility

[QUOTE=Pelagic;1712778]Hiding behind the percepted double safety standard of pleasure/commercial will in my opinion only lead to mandatory pleasure operator licensing and increased regulation by the clerics of this world.
/QUOTE]

LOL, Dear me, You do realize the for many things, there are different levels of code/ licensing requirements. Such as different code requirements for residential and commercial construction. Some things are allowed in residential construction that is not allowed in commercial construction. Same goes for the different codes/licensing requirements for a commercial truck driver, compared to the wimpy licensing requirements for the folks in cars.

In every part of life there are different codes for different levels of use. Docking a 50,000 ton ship is somewhat different then docking a 50 foot yacht. Same goes for the electrical, plumbing and fire systems used in yachts and ships.

In the USA 46CFR is the ships code for all commercial vessels and inspected yachts for charter. It does not at all apply to smaller pleasure craft. Just ask the coast guard. Two different things with two separate sets of code.

A residential kitchen has different code requirements then a commercial kitchen. I know, for I've designed both.

Its no different in boats. Yes we could make it mandatory that everyone comply with the strictest code possible. That would add a small amount of additional safety, but at great expense. Which is why there are slightly different levels of training between say a ships master and a ASA 101 or between a private pilot and commercial pilot.

Licensing for pleasure boat operators starts in California in 2018.
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