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Old 30-12-2014, 13:49   #46
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Re: responsibility

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So many of the products we use, like the on-demand propane system, or on the galley stoves for marine use are exactally the same EXCEPT additional testing has been done and we the user has to pay that price
This is both true and untrue. For example in the UK we have both the Boat safety scheme and the RCD EU directives, both have the force of law.

These forbid gas applicants that exhaust combustion gases to the interior of the boat. AN exception is made for stoves.

Hence if you want a gas water heater or gas powered fridge, you cannot use devices that are made for the caravan market, where such devices are allowed.

The reasoning is that gas accumulates in boats and does not in caravans.

The same reasoning is applied to the requirement that flame failure devices must be fired to all gas systems on a boat.

The fact is, there are specific marine codes that require specific equipment. Yes its true that sometimes its merely another industry model in disguise, but not always.
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Old 30-12-2014, 14:04   #47
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Re: responsibility

Its common knowledge and a note on aids to navigation that they often drift off original placement....
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Old 30-12-2014, 14:08   #48
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Re: responsibility

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
These forbid gas applicants that exhaust combustion gases to the interior of the boat. AN exception is made for stoves.
.
Hum looking at section 8.2.1 of the BSS, http://www.boatsafetyscheme.org/medi...de%20chap8.pdf where it talks about gas refrigerators. It seems to say that for petro powered vessels then the fridge needs a room sealed burner. It's implied that for diesel you don't need a room sealed burner.
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Old 30-12-2014, 14:12   #49
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Re: responsibility

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
This is both true and untrue. For example in the UK we have both the Boat safety scheme and the RCD EU directives, both have the force of law.

These forbid gas applicants that exhaust combustion gases to the interior of the boat. AN exception is made for stoves.

Hence if you want a gas water heater or gas powered fridge, you cannot use devices that are made for the caravan market, where such devices are allowed.

The reasoning is that gas accumulates in boats and does not in caravans.

The same reasoning is applied to the requirement that flame failure devices must be fired to all gas systems on a boat.

The fact is, there are specific marine codes that require specific equipment. Yes its true that sometimes its merely another industry model in disguise, but not always.
This is interesting -

My water heater is vented through the deck with a 3 inch flue. It has a flame out cutoff on the pilot light and the main burner. The main burner only lights when there is water flow, so when not in use there are several things that preclude gas flow: the main solenoid valve on the LPG tank, the gas valve on the supply line at the heater, the water flow valve, and the flame out valve.

This seems to be more safety features than my approved marine stove, yet it is apparently banned. In our usage, we only turn on it's supply valve when in use, and this is why I don't worry about it's safety. Since this thread was about responsibility, I reckon that I have taken a responsible position in this use of a non-approved appliance. Others may disagree...

Jim
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Old 30-12-2014, 14:20   #50
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Re: responsibility

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Originally Posted by Cheechako View Post
Its common knowledge and a note on aids to navigation that they often drift off original placement....
And it really freaks me out and stresses me when I come across one that is a mile or so from where the charts shows it to be.
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Old 30-12-2014, 14:31   #51
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Re: responsibility

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And it really freaks me out and stresses me when I come across one that is a mile or so from where the charts shows it to be.
Yeah.. it could be a blessing in disguise: early in my buddy's maritime experience, he set his autopilot to a mid channel bouy location. an hour later he nailed the mid channel bouy! Fortunately it was a glancing blow!


How in the world did the possessed get onto stoves in this thread?
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Old 30-12-2014, 14:35   #52
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Re: responsibility

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Originally Posted by Cheechako View Post
Yeah.. it could be a blessing in disguise: early in my buddy's maritime experience, he set his autopilot to a mid channel bouy location. an hour later he nailed the mid channel bouy! Fortunately it was a glancing blow!


How in the world did the possessed get onto stoves in this thread?
In reagards to the " responsibility " of fitting things that are not approved etc
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Old 30-12-2014, 15:05   #53
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Re: responsibility

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
In reagards to the " responsibility " of fitting things that are not approved etc
Oddly the US codes don't address or approve stoves on non-inspected recreational vessels. ABYC is a standard (not actually a "code", even ABYC's own CYA boilerplate says its just recommendations ) that is adopted by reference for inspected passenger vessels and commercial ships in 46CFR. That makes it code under 46CFR. BUT 46CFR does NOT apply to recreational vessel. 33CFR does. But 33CFR does not even mention propane for recreational vessels (yet).

It gets even messier as ABYC, CE and BSS conflict a little with each other. BSS requires a manual valve located near but not over a stove (something I strongly agree with 1000%). ABYC says no joints inside the cabin, except at the appliance and one more for a gimbaled stove, which precludes a manual valve near the stove.

Guess what, I have a manual valve adjacent to the stove (per BSS oddly), because it gives a redundant backup should the gas solenoid valve fail open for any reason. So is that responsible or not. I think it is as does the BSS, others (ABYC) may disagree. But at the end of the day, I will protect my boat/home as best I can with the funds (limited though they are) available.

ABYC requires that the valve on the propane tank be readily assessable. Readily assessable means direct access without opening a door or hatch. Just ask the coast guard about readily assessable. That conflicts with ABYC own codes, which has the tank in a sealed locker in many cases.
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Old 30-12-2014, 15:25   #54
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Re: responsibility

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Originally Posted by Cheechako View Post
Its common knowledge and a note on aids to navigation that they often drift off original placement....
I wish that were true but many do not bother to read the "notes" unless forced to.... Or study the court cases where losses have been incurred because of this.....
To me it relates to the 'ability' part of responsibility
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Old 30-12-2014, 15:50   #55
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Re: responsibility

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Originally Posted by Pelagic View Post
I wish that were true but many do not bother to read the "notes" unless forced to.... Or study the court cases where losses have been incurred because of this.....
To me it relates to the 'ability' part of responsibility
Yes... it's pretty true that many rely on all sorts of nav aids as gospel...electronic and otherwise.... Team Vespas would be a good example.... I think one should remember to consider them just another tool in the tool chest and use your brain and eyes!
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Old 30-12-2014, 16:12   #56
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Re: responsibility

what I find a bit sad is that while most are aware that navaids can give false information they have not studied each ones list of "Fixed and Variable Errors".

Most importantly, they have not developed a proven methodology to test and confirm positional accuracy when coasting past hidden but known dangers.

It is out there and it is called 'Parallel Indexing' ...but most are not aware or don't practice this well proven safety verification.
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Old 30-12-2014, 16:49   #57
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Re: responsibility

A good part of our Coast-guard's sea time is spent servicing navigational aids and we have been reducing coast guard budgets for a while in our country. I would expect many others are doing the same as Europe is continually belt tightening and thus the I suspect the positional accuracy will only decline with predictable results.
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Old 30-12-2014, 17:22   #58
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Re: responsibility

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My water heater is vented through the deck with a 3 inch flue. It has a flame out cutoff on the pilot light and the main burner. The main burner only lights when there is water flow, so when not in use there are several things that preclude gas flow: the main solenoid valve on the LPG tank, the gas valve on the supply line at the heater, the water flow valve, and the flame out valve.

This seems to be more safety features than my approved marine stove, yet it is apparently banned. In our usage, we only turn on it's supply valve when in use, and this is why I don't worry about it's safety. Since this thread was about responsibility, I reckon that I have taken a responsible position in this use of a non-approved appliance. Others may disagree...

Jim
As you would know there are many boats in Aus with similar systems as yours .
Our boat has the same type setup and I am as comfortable with it as I am with the Force 10 oven and stove .
I was not aware the water heater did not comply main reason being the boat has a recent Gas Certificte issued for it.
Chris
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Old 30-12-2014, 17:43   #59
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Re: responsibility

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I was not aware the water heater did not comply main reason being the boat has a recent Gas Certificte issued for it.
Well, I am glad to hear that, Chris. As our boat is US flagged I have not come under the scrutiny of the Aussie gas sniffers, but should I wish to sell her here some day, that would be an issue. Thanks for the knowledge.

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Old 30-12-2014, 18:03   #60
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Re: responsibility

Incredible! Four days and four pages later we still discuss about a water heater... woowww.. we have a new record...
Happy new year everybody!!
Let's talk about something else and stop arguing about angel's sex...
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