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Old 29-12-2014, 23:54   #16
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And charts go out of date, sextant can get bent, depth sounders can have interferences, compasses can deviate. I guess we should just throw them away and ignore all the buoys?
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Old 29-12-2014, 23:55   #17
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Re: responsibility

Nope.

It's liability.

It's the same, for all, or mostly Common Law.

Which, was born about the, Commonwealth, which most of our laws are predicated on.

Certainly the laws in Admiralty, which most if not all insurances claims lye, if it rounds a vessel. In today's world.

It's international convention.

Lloyd


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Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
LLoyd, I am a bit confused here.

What claims am I likely to have denied? I'm not gonna pay fees and spend time researching when you seem to have all the answers... why not just tell me where I am straying?

If it relates to claims for my boat being blown up from a propane leak, OK, I'm ready to take that risk. If it is for something else, please explain what risks I am taking, and how I might mitigate them.

Oh... I only carry third party (liability for yanks) insurance. I've been willing to take responsibility for my own losses ever since we left 28 years ago. Are you telling me that some LPG installation will negate that insurance if I cause a casualty loss for someone (other that from LPG explosion)? That, on the surface, seems unlikely. If it is something else, please explain so that I can do something about it.

Jim
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Old 30-12-2014, 00:15   #18
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Re: responsibility

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Originally Posted by FlyingCloud1937 View Post
Nope.

It's liability.

It's the same, for all, or mostly Common Law.

Which, was born about the, Commonwealth, which most of our laws are predicated on.

Certainly the laws in Admiralty, which most if not all insurances claims lye, if it rounds a vessel. In today's world.

It's international convention.

Lloyd
Sorry Lloyd, but I still don't know what the hell you are talking about!

What liability am I assuming or being saddled with?

What have I done wrong?

Why am I guilty?

What are you on about?

Jim
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Old 30-12-2014, 00:48   #19
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Re: responsibility

Jim,

Untill you are liable to someone in a court of law...you are free to go about your business as you see fit.

The minute you are charged with liable, then you are not so free.

At that point you will either be represented by you insurance co, or you will be responsible to post bond to the court, for the charges leveled.

If you can't post bond, then the court has ability to arrest/seize all and any assets you have to make potential restitution. They will be held in the courts honor until the case is settled.

You nor your wife will be able to pledge any of the assets for loan/or cash.

How will you pay your attorney/barrister/lawyer, and other bills, and cost of living?

That in it's self is the value of insurance, in that it is required to defend, unless, deceptive on your part abounds.

Lloyd


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Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
Sorry Lloyd, but I still don't know what the hell you are talking about!

What liability am I assuming or being saddled with?

What have I done wrong?

Why am I guilty?

What are you on about?

Jim
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Old 30-12-2014, 00:50   #20
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Re: responsibility

Jim...... In Americana.....
"I Exist, therefore I am Liable."

Seems to satisfy their need for self flagellation
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Old 30-12-2014, 01:15   #21
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Re: responsibility

Paligic,

In hopes, if needs be, you will find yourself under common law. By International Laws based on the Commonwealth.

Instead of of local law, based on something else.

Least you will have a chance.

Lloyd



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Jim...... In Americana.....
"I Exist, therefore I am Liable."

Seems to satisfy their need for self flagellation
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Old 30-12-2014, 01:38   #22
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Re: responsibility

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Originally Posted by FlyingCloud1937 View Post
Jim,

Untill you are liable to someone in a court of law...you are free to go about your business as you see fit.

The minute you are charged with liable, then you are not so free.

At that point you will either be represented by you insurance co, or you will be responsible to post bond to the court, for the charges leveled.

If you can't post bond, then the court has ability to arrest/seize all and any assets you have to make potential restitution. They will be held in the courts honor until the case is settled.

You nor your wife will be able to pledge any of the assets for loan/or cash.

How will you pay your attorney/barrister/lawyer, and other bills, and cost of living?

That in it's self is the value of insurance, in that it is required to defend, unless, deceptive on your part abounds.

Lloyd
One last time: exactly what liability are you considering here?

I really don't have a clue what you are on about. As a card-carrying American, I am aware of liability issues, but I am at a loss to understand why you are harping on this here. What have I said that makes you think I have potential liabilities?

You keep making these general statements with the implication that I have some great defect that will cause me to be brailed up in court. What is that defect in my boat, self or practices?

Jim
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Old 30-12-2014, 03:10   #23
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responsibility

Could I just point out first that " common law " is law developed as a result of court decisions rather then legislative ones. ( some countries don't have it ) I don't beleive it has anything to do with a " commonwealth " per say

Back to issues like gas appliances. It's all very well carrying public liability insurance. BUT merely cause you pay a premium dies not mean you are protected by such insurance.

So let's say you fit a room vented gas appliance that's banned under your countries boat safety code ( like say the RCD in Europe ) you have an accident your boat blows up and injures a person standing on the dock, your insurance company on investigation discovers the unapproved equipment and rejects your claim for cover.

You are then personally exposed to a civil claim

By the way folk admiralty law is a generic term used to describe laws affecting mariners and their vessels. In the UK and some jurisdictions admiralty law is adjudicated in special " admiralty courts " which are not based on common law. Many many marine cases may not be " admiralty " cases merely conventional civil cases. Merely because an incidence happened on a boat does not make it a " admiralty law " case.

Some countries have no such distinction as marine law is part of the ordinary civil code

So if you break " code " and I agree sometimes the code is stupid , be aware that you are running a risk

PS. Personally I would not have room/cabin vented gas appliances on a boat where alternatives are available
Dave
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Old 30-12-2014, 06:17   #24
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Re: responsibility

it is the freekin blonde channel markers that are at fault-not the jerk who refuses to check his depth sounder....
here folks run aground despite being taught how to safely enter--- instead of using the physical markers and depth, they use their gps--rodlmffao--they forget the inaccuracy of same causes them to RUN AGROUND in a skinny channel.. is good entertainment.
but, of course, it isnt the fault of the loose nut behind the wheel that is the cause. oh, nooooo..it is the fault of the electronix... rodlmffao....
oh, yes-- sailor chic--- the blonde channel markers DO wander here......


and so, as i ready for my tow into the lagoon.............

oh yes, and jim cate--everything is our fault.. didntcha know that??
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Old 30-12-2014, 06:27   #25
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Re: responsibility

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Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
LLoyd, I am a bit confused here.

What claims am I likely to have denied? I'm not gonna pay fees and spend time researching when you seem to have all the answers... why not just tell me where I am straying?

If it relates to claims for my boat being blown up from a propane leak, OK, I'm ready to take that risk. If it is for something else, please explain what risks I am taking, and how I might mitigate them.

Oh... I only carry third party (liability for yanks) insurance. I've been willing to take responsibility for my own losses ever since we left 28 years ago. Are you telling me that some LPG installation will negate that insurance if I cause a casualty loss for someone (other that from LPG explosion)? That, on the surface, seems unlikely. If it is something else, please explain so that I can do something about it.

Jim
Jim,
Do you mind telling me which company you get 3rd party only liability from and a rough idea of the rate? We have been shopping and can not find a reasonable rate. Cheers, Robert
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Old 30-12-2014, 06:27   #26
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Re: responsibility

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Every professional mariner is taught that floating navigational markers can be dragged out of position by heavy weather, or collision with a barge etc..... So is never used to fix a position.
Most of us are not "professional mariners".

Still, we should have picked that up somewhere or figured it out on our own.
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Old 30-12-2014, 06:44   #27
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Re: responsibility

Seems to me that if you know you have an unsafe gas situation, and do not remedy it, and it causes damages to someone else, then yeah, you're liable for that damage.
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Old 30-12-2014, 07:26   #28
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Re: responsibility

I keep reading these "If you make an unsafe modification to your boat your insurance won't cover you." posts on boating forums but I've never seen anyone post any proof of this, only "Check with your agent.".

It seems to me that this is exactly what insurance is for; to cover your mistakes.

If putting a non-approved propane heater on your boat (I wouldn't do that BTW) negates your insurance and doesn't cover someone else's injuries or damages, what's the point in having insurance in the first place? And how does the other party receive compensation for his/her damages or injuries.

So - Let's see the proof. Put up or shut up.
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Old 30-12-2014, 07:39   #29
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And if that theory holds, then car liability insurance wouldn't cover your financial responsibility for accidents where you are at fault - so what the heck would it cover?
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Old 30-12-2014, 07:45   #30
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Re: responsibility

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Originally Posted by rwidman View Post
I keep reading these "If you make an unsafe modification to your boat your insurance won't cover you." posts on boating forums but I've never seen anyone post any proof of this, only "Check with your agent.".

It seems to me that this is exactly what insurance is for; to cover your mistakes.

If putting a non-approved propane heater on your boat (I wouldn't do that BTW) negates your insurance and doesn't cover someone else's injuries or damages, what's the point in having insurance in the first place? And how does the other party receive compensation for his/her damages or injuries.

So - Let's see the proof. Put up or shut up.
I can't quote the exact specifics, because I could cause libel, But I know of two cases where insurance companies refused to pay out on a yacht that sank at its moorings , the other partly burnt at its dock, due to gas modifications that carried out against the legal code of the day. ( the first one was related to seacock issues and the owners repairs)

One to my knowledge was never resolved , the other 5 years on is still in the courts.

I was also involved ( as expert testimony) some years ago on a claim where a insurance company refused to pay out due to the loss of a yacht in a winter storm, where they claimed that the lack of competency of the skipper was to blame and that that he acted against reasonable advise and accepted actions and sailed into a storm and lost the vessel. As far as I know there was several court actions ranging over 4 years before I lost touch with what happened.

I happen to have a friend who is a loss adjuster. It is an everyday activity for him to be involved in situations where a claim is denied based on proof of negligence.


Most insurers will pay out, unless they can establish wilful negligence. SO for example, lets say the Gas code of the land prohibits non-room sealed heaters, and you deliberately install one and you have an accident, DO you really think you are covered. !!

I see this all the time here, where caravan orientated Gas fridges are installed in boats in direct contravention to CE ( and BSS) regulations.

What insurance covers are non-deliberate accidents. if you commit a pre-determined set of negligent actions, you are skating on thin ice. in the case of certain insurances you may be covered for deliberate negligent actions ( like speeding) .

Simply because you are paying a premium does not mean you have insurance cover.
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