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Old 27-03-2008, 12:22   #76
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I personally hate this topic because I don't know where I stand on it...sometimes I think I'll go armed and other times I think it is simply stupid when considering the potential hassle it would cause. If you declare a weapon in one port...you're going to have to declare it in every port.
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Old 27-03-2008, 12:30   #77
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Here is something to consider...
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Old 27-03-2008, 12:36   #78
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Similarly to others I am neither for or against carrying a gun on board. I'd be more likely to do so in ssulivans case where you have someone else to protect like a wife or kid. Especially in the case of someone boarding your vessel, you never know what could happen and its almost not worth thinking about.

In other situations such as the ones off Somalia, carrying a gun is more likely going to result in death whether it be yours or someone elses. If theres more of them, its more likely going to be you, unless you can deter them. Remember though if you to manage to tag one of them you're going to have to explain yourself to someone, and that someone may not take kindly to having one of their fellow patriots killed. Taking the language barrier into consideration there seems a possibility of you ending up in some African jail, and from what i've seen I think i'd rather be dead. Saying that, the other option is to surrender after making distress calls which are unlikely to be answered. It may go swimmingly if no resistence is shown, with them just taking what they can find.... But if this is what you choose to do you never know what their intentions are until they are inflicted upon you and whoever else you may have onboard.

Im from the UK where gun crime is minimal and ownership is highly regulated, although there is obviously illegal arms in circulation. Im not as "gun happy" as a lot of our friends across the Atlantic which must be due to the general cultural acceptance and it being viewed as a fundamental human right. But I can definately see the justification for doing so, especially on a boat where you are so isolated.

All I can say is I hope the people who carry guns never have to use them, and the people who dont are never in a situation where they wish they had one. Safe sailing to you all.
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Old 27-03-2008, 13:06   #79
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Trim,

IF, and that is a big IF I where to carry firearms on the boat and not declare one of them. That would be the one and would have a regular 12g. to declare. To explain the ammo you know (this from the wife, not me). Waterline anyone.
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Old 27-03-2008, 13:23   #80
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That thing damn nears scares me. Reminds me of a weapon we trained with that "never went into production" the HK CAW. Only that AA12 is just scary when you look at the further videos with the fin stabilized HE rounds that give it pretty nasty range. I don't need anything like that. That thing is for War and War only.
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Old 27-03-2008, 13:25   #81
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Gord,

Oakland is a brutal town, and unfortunately I had already bought the property, and started my business before I was fully aware. It is a HUGE GHETTO, with ghetto mentality. Intimidation, and bullying is an everyday way of life. I refused to fix a man's car for free, so he tried to run over me. What saved me was jumping behind a rack.

Once the derringer was in my back pocket peoples attitudes changed quite a bit. You could say some even obtained manners....LOL Once an ex-con with the tattoos showing murders kept coming back demanding his money returned. Yet he wanted to keep the exhaust system I installed. About the 3rd, or 4th time he warned me he was coming back to kill me. When he returned I stuck the derringer in my front pocket with my hand on it. He started threatening me again, and when he approached me aggressively I let the handle be shown. He stepped back with his mouth running the whole time, and then he left. The police were waiting for him when he got home.

When I sailed Mexico I took no weapon, and the time I have spent in the Bahamas I kept no weapon. Although as I stated before when being followed by a fishing panga. My flare gun was the deterent. They could not tell if it was a 44magnum, or flare gun, but they got the idea, and left.

Don't feel bad for me getting a blackeye Gord. Heck when I left Oakland I left with enough to pay for my cat, my lovely pool home in Florida, and 4 years of no work while sailing the Bahamas during the season.

It's a private decision to be armed while sailing. I choose not to, but here at home I do arm myself. Unfortunately here in one of the greatest countries ever. The darned criminal has all the rights, and I am more than willing to be tried by a jury of my peers, than buried by 6 of my closest friends.......
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Old 27-03-2008, 13:34   #82
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Man... I can't imagine owning a public-serving business in Oakland. Stress from running a business is enough, nevermind the stress of having the ex-con with the tear drops or whatever threatening you.

Good LORD. It must have been quite a relief to move out to FL.
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Old 27-03-2008, 14:00   #83
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Originally Posted by ssullivan View Post
Very good post. You make good points, you outline the proper use of firearms and do not draw any conclusions or try to convince anyone they should or should not have a gun.

I'd say this is an excellent line of thinking. While crimes against mariners are on the rise, usually you don't want a gun when traveling outside your own country due to the headaches caused with customs and/or illegality of firearms in some countries.

Sneuman did some good reasearch for his article. Pirates don't really go after our little, piddly pauper boats. They are after commercial vessels and real money, so there isn't a concern for armed pirates accosting you at sea. What happens is normal violence and people from *shore* that want to pay you a visit. (or in my case, charter guests)

I'd be of the school of thought that I would want some plan to keep someone from breaking into my boat (while I was locked inside). Not sure what that would be for country-hopping, but it probably wouldn't be a gun. My gun is for work and the USA, where I have seen more than my fair share of trouble on board.

I should point out, not suggesting that anyone get guns, but just pointing out... that a lot of this depends on the money and boat you have. Unfortunately, it seems the law/customs, etc... looks the other way when it comes to the wealthy. Nearly every megayacht I have worked on is armed to the teeth. They travel the globe and have their firearms ready to use at a moment's notice. The ultra-rich do indeed carry weapons when they cruise.
Just curious about your "share of trouble". If it has been too high and now you have a shotgun aboard then, in the past how many times do you think the sight of it would have ended the conflict and how many times would you have had a dead body on your hands?

Curious mostly, because one of the things I keep dreaming about is a boat and the money to keep it "afloat" (or just keep it) and some chartering seems to be a possibility (dream?) for a few bucks here and there. I have always enjoyed showing others the neat places I have found.

On the topic in general;

I seem to think from lots of reading and all that most "piracy", when it does happen, happens at anchor. This would mean that if I did carry firearms outside the US and was at anchor I would be unarmed anyway because of local check-in "rules".
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Old 27-03-2008, 14:25   #84
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Gord,

Being an Italian/American (Just got done voting for the Italian Government) living in the UK. The Violence is not an American issue as much as many would like to make it out. Here it is severe Knife problem (grade school level in some places). In Italy you have all the different flavors of the mafia (some of the worst are not in the South). In Eastern Europe there is slave trade in the bought bride scams as is there slave trade down in Spain/Portugal (Madeline Albright comes to mind).

The US just keeps good records and you can see the dirty laundry easier. There is murder and death aplenty, the goal is to keep you and yours safe without becoming an armed camp if possible or slaves. Once you pay the Gild you never get rid of the Dane and there are many forms of Gild. Not saying the US doesn't have a problem, it does; just that the world is full of the stuff and the US does not have a corner on the market. The media is just good at publicity.
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Old 27-03-2008, 14:30   #85
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Just curious about your "share of trouble". If it has been too high and now you have a shotgun aboard then, in the past how many times do you think the sight of it would have ended the conflict and how many times would you have had a dead body on your hands?

Curious mostly, because one of the things I keep dreaming about is a boat and the money to keep it "afloat" (or just keep it) and some chartering seems to be a possibility (dream?) for a few bucks here and there. I have always enjoyed showing others the neat places I have found.

On the topic in general;

I seem to think from lots of reading and all that most "piracy", when it does happen, happens at anchor. This would mean that if I did carry firearms outside the US and was at anchor I would be unarmed anyway because of local check-in "rules".

Good question... I'll answer as best I can:

I would not have used the shotgun or showed it to anyone in any of my past difficulties. It remains hidden until matters become "life or death." I would have done everything the same way I did it before - by calling the harbor patrol to have that guy removed and waiting the nervous half hour while blocking the blows and dancing around the deck (I'm fast on my feet... ha ha) So to answer direclty, the gun would not have prevented *any* of my previous fair share of troubles.

Chartering is a dangerous, "cowboy" business. There are no doctors, no law enforcement, and no help is available to you. I was *very* lucky the guy went bezerk at anchor before we headed out. If that happened when we were at sea, I would have had to kill him... literally. I would have somehow had to have knocked him into the water and left him.

Look at that fishing charter where the 3 person crew was killed and dumped overboard here in FL this winter (or fall?) by the people who were taking it down the Keys. Look at that couple who was selling their boat in CA and was killed by the prospective buyer. These are the real situations you are trying to prepare for. These are two situations I have been very close to in my own life. These are situations I don't plan to fall victime to a "check mate" in.

There is a fine line between taking a gun out and handling the situation through every other available means. You *must* exhaust every other means before you take a gun like mine out. It simply cannot be shown to deter people. The only time you can take it out is if your life is on the line and it's "you or them." Only if there is no other alternative. And, as those who have been trained in the use of firearms have said on this thread, you *must* be prepared to kill the other person if you have taken the gun out. So... the gun remains hidden until there are no other options.

Not only is this the responsible way to keep a firearm, but it's usually the law, too. Most states have laws that say you need to match equal force with equal force and have to use every available means at your disposal (including retreat) in order to justify using a firearm. I'd say those laws are correct.

While people may jump all over me for owning a gun, they often aren't looking at the gun owner closely enough. There is a big difference between having a gun because you love them and have some Hollywood fantasy vs. having a gun as a weapon of last resort.
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Old 27-03-2008, 14:40   #86
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Gord,

Being an Italian/American (Just got done voting for the Italian Government) living in the UK. The Violence is not an American issue as much as many would like to make it out. Here it is severe Knife problem (grade school level in some places). In Italy you have all the different flavors of the mafia (some of the worst are not in the South). In Eastern Europe there is slave trade in the bought bride scams as is there slave trade down in Spain/Portugal (Madeline Albright comes to mind).

The US just keeps good records and you can see the dirty laundry easier. There is murder and death aplenty, the goal is to keep you and yours safe without becoming an armed camp if possible or slaves. Once you pay the Gild you never get rid of the Dane and there are many forms of Gild. Not saying the US doesn't have a problem, it does; just that the world is full of the stuff and the US does not have a corner on the market. The media is just good at publicity.
I don't have all the references but if one looks at crime rates in the UK and Aus. since the big moves to remove the guns from the citizens then one will see what the crime rates have become...........way up! Those are just statistics though.

Much better to show a gun story than a simple stabbing even if the end result was only a little bleeding.
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Old 27-03-2008, 14:50   #87
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Good question... I'll answer as best I can:

I would not have used the shotgun or showed it to anyone in any of my past difficulties. It remains hidden until matters become "life or death." I would have done everything the same way I did it before - by calling the harbor patrol to have that guy removed and waiting the nervous half hour while blocking the blows and dancing around the deck (I'm fast on my feet... ha ha) So to answer direclty, the gun would not have prevented *any* of my previous fair share of troubles.

Chartering is a dangerous, "cowboy" business. There are no doctors, no law enforcement, and no help is available to you. I was *very* lucky the guy went bezerk at anchor before we headed out. If that happened when we were at sea, I would have had to kill him... literally. I would have somehow had to have knocked him into the water and left him.

Look at that fishing charter where the 3 person crew was killed and dumped overboard here in FL this winter (or fall?) by the people who were taking it down the Keys. Look at that couple who was selling their boat in CA and was killed by the prospective buyer. These are the real situations you are trying to prepare for. These are two situations I have been very close to in my own life. These are situations I don't plan to fall victime to a "check mate" in.

There is a fine line between taking a gun out and handling the situation through every other available means. You *must* exhaust every other means before you take a gun like mine out. It simply cannot be shown to deter people. The only time you can take it out is if your life is on the line and it's "you or them." Only if there is no other alternative. And, as those who have been trained in the use of firearms have said on this thread, you *must* be prepared to kill the other person if you have taken the gun out. So... the gun remains hidden until there are no other options.

Not only is this the responsible way to keep a firearm, but it's usually the law, too. Most states have laws that say you need to match equal force with equal force and have to use every available means at your disposal (including retreat) in order to justify using a firearm. I'd say those laws are correct.

While people may jump all over me for owning a gun, they often aren't looking at the gun owner closely enough. There is a big difference between having a gun because you love them and have some Hollywood fantasy vs. having a gun as a weapon of last resort.
I don't disagree with your fundamentals and am always running scenarios in my head too. I also have had a little training. Hard choices.

I wonder about myself.........how many times would I allow (if I had a choice and was not unconcious too soon) someone to hit me before I retreated to the "cabinet". I don't think that is a workable scenario. One would have to arm at the threat, not during the combat.

The example of the crew that chartered the pirates............well.........friends and a family member told them it was not smart and too good to be true. You know, they were "shady looking" and only out at dark, and...paying from a bag of cash they had. Red Flag, Red Flag.......
I hope your charter model has a paragraph about folks who look and act like that .

But like you say, one can never tell, really, at first glance.

Hard choices...........life.
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