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Old 27-03-2008, 04:43   #61
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I like the Yugo SKS's with the grenade launcher

Much better to go with an RPG7. You can get the rockets in almost every 3rd world country - and they are much cheaper than LAW's or M79's!
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Old 27-03-2008, 04:58   #62
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Thanks, Sean.
Mossberg 500 Mariner
Marinecote, Heat Shield, Pistol Grip, 6 Shot 12 Gauge Pump Action,
Bead Sight, Cylinder Bore,
18 1/2 inch barrel, 28 3/4 inches overall length, 5 3/4 lbs.

I might add that, there's no more frightening sound, in the dark, than the "kachunk" of a pump chambering a round.


Oh, I'm sure officials at immigration will welcome you with open arms with that on board, it's such a nice friendly looking piece of equipment (although it is illegal in several states in the U.S., as well as many countries around the world, the reason being the short barrel makes this "peacemaker" much easier to conceal in a jacket etc., making it extra attractive on most black markets).

And thank you for making all those that come behind you subject to extraordinary searches because we come from the same country as you. If you are that paranoid (and please no speeches on protecting family at any cost etc, we all want to do that) please stay close to home, because when you go outside the golden gates, you are responsible for the reputation of all those that go behind you. Just like the fact that you don't want to be judged by the last American that stayed on an atoll and threw their trash in the water along with their holding tank contents on the way out, I don't want to be judged by the last American that came in armed to the teeth against a still unidentified "danger".

Always remember that in the U.S. we are bombarded daily with news and other propoganda about all the goonies out their that are coming to get us unless we BUY lots of protection (insurance, antibacterial scrub, hepa filters, pharmecuticals etc). It's not danger, its BIG business.

Sorry to say, but after 50 years here, I find the public is becoming more and more paranoid, while getting more and more pumped up on things like way too much coffee, way to much Red Bull, way to much work, traffic and on and on. The whole point of cruising is to RELAX. If you think there is a pirate behind every fishing boat, in every lagoon, in every deserted anchorage, by all means, stay home, stay safely at home, close the blinds, tape up the cracks in your windows and wait for the "all clear" before you venture out into the world again.

WOW, THAT FELT REALLY GOOD. YOU MAY NOW RETURN TO YOUR DEBATE ON WHICH WEAPON MAKES YOU FEEL THE COZIEST.

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Old 27-03-2008, 06:12   #63
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Waterworldly...

Are you for real?

Is this post some kind of joke?

You don't know me from a hole in the wall. Why don't you go through my historical posts to see why I carry a weapon aboard, before you launch into a tirade like this against me. Please search for terms such as:

"grifter"

and

"charter"

Take a good read through those posts and see what has happened to me in the past. See what I am doing for a living. See why I have to carry protection aboard. Please *read* before you launch into something like this. You're a newcomer here... you don't have a clue as to why I had to get a firearm.

Have you ever had someone try to steal your boat? Ever been physically attacked on your boat? Ever had someone go into a drug-induced rage and start breaking things in your master stateroom? Ever had to wait a nervous half an hour with a drunk (6'4") psycho attacking you and your wife while you were awaiting the harbor police to remove the person? Yeah... didn't think so.

You are grossly mis-informed regarding gun laws, specifically with respect to my particular firearm. It is *always* legal on my boat or place of business, which are one in the same where I operate.

Additionally, I don't drink coffee, I wouldn't touch RedBull, I don't commute to a job off the water, nor do I drive much. I am quite a calm, logical person (with a passionate writing style).

And for the record, GordMay is decidely anti-gun on board. I'm sure you didn't mean to quote him.

PS: I would like to add that there is a "Firearms or not" thread where you should have directed this tirade. I am not arguing for or against them. I just have to have one given my line of work and what happened to me in the past.


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Originally Posted by waterworldly View Post


Oh, I'm sure officials at immigration will welcome you with open arms with that on board, it's such a nice friendly looking piece of equipment (although it is illegal in several states in the U.S., as well as many countries around the world, the reason being the short barrel makes this "peacemaker" much easier to conceal in a jacket etc., making it extra attractive on most black markets).

And thank you for making all those that come behind you subject to extraordinary searches because we come from the same country as you. If you are that paranoid (and please no speeches on protecting family at any cost etc, we all want to do that) please stay close to home, because when you go outside the golden gates, you are responsible for the reputation of all those that go behind you. Just like the fact that you don't want to be judged by the last American that stayed on an atoll and threw their trash in the water along with their holding tank contents on the way out, I don't want to be judged by the last American that came in armed to the teeth against a still unidentified "danger".

Always remember that in the U.S. we are bombarded daily with news and other propoganda about all the goonies out their that are coming to get us unless we BUY lots of protection (insurance, antibacterial scrub, hepa filters, pharmecuticals etc). It's not danger, its BIG business.

Sorry to say, but after 50 years here, I find the public is becoming more and more paranoid, while getting more and more pumped up on things like way too much coffee, way to much Red Bull, way to much work, traffic and on and on. The whole point of cruising is to RELAX. If you think there is a pirate behind every fishing boat, in every lagoon, in every deserted anchorage, by all means, stay home, stay safely at home, close the blinds, tape up the cracks in your windows and wait for the "all clear" before you venture out into the world again.

WOW, THAT FELT REALLY GOOD. YOU MAY NOW RETURN TO YOUR DEBATE ON WHICH WEAPON MAKES YOU FEEL THE COZIEST.
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Old 27-03-2008, 06:25   #64
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Some VERY HARD Chioces

Okay everyone,

I am not a moderator and hopefully this post won't get me in trouble.

Here are some points that one has to look at very seriously:

1) Violent crime against Boat owners in foreign waters and their own national waters is on the rise (one only has to read of the cases in the UK [and how many go under reported]).

2)The majority of Law Enforcement is unmanned to deal with the problem and in many areas there is little to no rule of law. Worse yet we are looked at as being "Toy" owners and our "insurance" will pay for the damages.

3) There is an increasing number of us that are choosing to find means by which to sail and live without the need of a land based income to bind us down (internet and building a business with intent to sell are options among many)

4) There is a surprisingly large amount of us who little or no training in dealing with conflict of the violent sort. I luckily have a good bit of training from Uncle and also have studied more than a few years martial arts.

5) The let them have what they want has in some cases ended in dead sailors. History points out that Pirates best dealt with at the end of rope or other such permanent terminus point of life.

Given the above points (they are not the full accounting that could be given), we; each of us, must choose how we will deal with this problem. Those who choose to carry firearms (I know of a few from the UK and Italy who do), tend not to wave them about in public. It gets you the wrong type of attention doings so. A gun locker is much wiser place to store them on the boat until they MIGHT be needed. The only other time they need to be out is when you are practicing (hopefully at a safe distance from other boats), and when you are surrendering it or getting it back from the Harbour master when leaving. There are long standing international law in how to deal with this. In the UK you can have a shotgun and with certain permissions a pistol as well (there are required permits and you do have to surrender the weapon while in port or have it lock in a way that meets the law). Italy allows a shotgun I believe, though it has to be chipped so as to trace it if stolen.

Piracy is a problem, a problem so serious for some countries that they are taking steps to stop it. Venezuela's Coast Guard/Maritime Police groups have setup a radio hotline for sail vessels in their waters and it is showing great results. There are other areas that are also dealing with the problem in positive fashions. Unfortunately, there is also places like Yemen, India, and a few others (a longer list than I like) who treat the problem as either not being there or just something we (the private sailing community) just have to deal with (you are all rich foreigners after all).

The IMB is not much better and would like to see us go away, if you read some of their position papers on private sailing (though that position seems to be changing). They are also hamstung by only having the resources that the governments of the world are willing to give them and what funding they get from mandatory fees (which haven't been raised in a long time[though bunker fees these days are obscene]).

SO how do each of us deal with problem and how do WE the GREATER sailing community work TOGETHER to stop this problem? Good question, to which I have some very humble suggestions but no answers.

Please as I asked in my earlier posts, message if you have interest in this issue and wish to work towards an answer or possible answers. I am no guru; these feet are clay but I won't run in fear nor encourage people who really don't understand what they are going to do when that hammer falls and they have to look themselves in the mirror afterward. Using a firearm is serious, dealing with Pirates/Gangs/Thieves who ARE getting more violent and bold in their actions is also serious. So think on it. Simple answers often have heavy prices.
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Old 27-03-2008, 07:08   #65
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Chiroeurope,

With all due respect, I disagree with at least one of your premises. While piracy in general is on the rise, it is almost exclusively directed against commercial vessels. Piracy against yachts is extremely rare. I have done extensive research on this, and the statistics bear that out.

That relates directly to your first statement about violent crime against boat owners in foreign waters. Since those kind of statistics are incorporated in the piracy numbers (the International Maritime Organization makes no distinction between piracy on the high seas and crime in port, for example), I'd have to disagree, unless there's some important data I have missed.

In fact, the majority of "attempted piracy" incidents seem to have a less-than-sinister explanation. A lot of them, for example, seem to involve fishermen in developing countries.

We have already discussed firearms ad nauseum on this board. It inevitably breaks down along party lines, so to speak: pro-gun people vs. people who believe guns are unnecessary. About that, I would only make this observation: the latter group is made up disproportionately of cruisers with the most street cred.
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Old 27-03-2008, 07:37   #66
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A paintball gun might be a good "less-than-lethal" option to deter would-be boarders. You can get them for a reasonable price. They can shoot very fast to cause a lot of pain and raise welts on the body. Shoot a pirate in the head or crotch and they will be down and out hopefully.
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Old 27-03-2008, 07:43   #67
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Did anyone read the stories of the pirate attacks on this thread? The ones where the Navy vessel was 20 miles away, found the pirates, but let them go?
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Old 27-03-2008, 07:52   #68
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NEVER bring a knife to a gun fight! Let alone a paint gun. That will just get you killed when they see that! Pirates are THUGS, and a welt will only PI$$ them off.
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Old 27-03-2008, 08:01   #69
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Chiroeurope,

With all due respect, I disagree with at least one of your premises. While piracy in general is on the rise, it is almost exclusively directed against commercial vessels. Piracy against yachts is extremely rare. I have done extensive research on this, and the statistics bear that out.

That relates directly to your first statement about violent crime against boat owners in foreign waters. Since those kind of statistics are incorporated in the piracy numbers (the International Maritime Organization makes no distinction between piracy on the high seas and crime in port, for example), I'd have to disagree, unless there's some important data I have missed.

Well SINCE from the IMB site itself, IT list PIRACY as an act happening in International Waters and in their white papers do make a distinction between the direct types of crime against vessels and admit in their own reports that it is under reported to the amount of crime happening. I wonder where you get your data as mine is from the IMB and other international sailing and maritime sources as well as hunting down the stories to the first person (when possible) to confirm types of crime done against sailors (private or public).

In fact, the majority of "attempted piracy" incidents seem to have a less-than-sinister explanation. A lot of them, for example, seem to involve fishermen in developing countries.

I wish this was the case but there is evidence the other direction as well and I don't trust the third forms of Lies unless I get to see the raw data (Sorry work in the health industry and know how easy it is to alter statistics)

We have already discussed firearms ad nauseum on this board. It inevitably breaks down along party lines, so to speak: pro-gun people vs. people who believe guns are unnecessary. About that, I would only make this observation: the latter group is made up disproportionately of cruisers with the most street cred.
I do not support firearms on a boat, nor am I against them. Shooting a person is an act that can and in many cases will kill them. As we were taught in MP school, when you draw that weapon, your intent had better be to kill them. We where taught shooting to wound is a foolish joke that most times does not work. Having seen the entire inside of the human body during my degree, I tend to agree with.

How we deal with a documentable increase in crime is a different story. It may or may not involve firearms. That is up to each person. While I can see their use, it is not a light one ever.

Sorry if I come across sharply but have spent the last year and a half spending time and money trying to get a real picture of the problem and not finding a lot of solid facts. Even those I know in a commercial side of things don't like talking about it and there are UK firms that now won't go by the Suez route do to not being able to get insurance to cover their ships.

There are a few islands that I have gotten information and some reports from but nothing solid. This is part of the problem. You get a report or newspaper posting (I read three languages well and can puzzle out two others) and than the road goes cold and when you contact national reporting centers you get conflicting information (nobody wants to harm their tourist trade).

The options on how to deal with it vary. Working as a community can help, but a head in the sand view never does.
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Old 27-03-2008, 08:14   #70
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The options on how to deal with it vary. Working as a community can help, but a head in the sand view never does.
here's an article I wrote a few years ago for the Andaman Sea Pilot. This deals exclusively with Southeast Asia, mind you, but it includes one of the most "pirate-infested" areas, the Strait of Malacca:

Andaman Sea Pilot - the definitive cruising guide for the Andaman Sea...and more

" ... by far the most telling figure for most of us is the number 1. That’s how many acts of piracy in Southeast Asia last year actually touched a pleasure yacht. All the others involved commercial vessels such as bulk carriers, container ships or fishing boats."

This is also a good article on Jimmy Cornell's respected Noonsite.com (again, it covers only Southeast Asia, again - it's the only region I have looked closely at):

Noonsite: False Perceptions Of Piracy Against Yachts In Asia

"There are absolutely no distinctions in these stories about piracy attacks on commercial shipping, which do continue to occur but within a well-documented range of circumstances and geographic areas, and piracy attacks on pleasure craft, which in Asia are virtually non-existent now."
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Old 27-03-2008, 08:21   #71
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Very good post. You make good points, you outline the proper use of firearms and do not draw any conclusions or try to convince anyone they should or should not have a gun.

I'd say this is an excellent line of thinking. While crimes against mariners are on the rise, usually you don't want a gun when traveling outside your own country due to the headaches caused with customs and/or illegality of firearms in some countries.

Sneuman did some good reasearch for his article. Pirates don't really go after our little, piddly pauper boats. They are after commercial vessels and real money, so there isn't a concern for armed pirates accosting you at sea. What happens is normal violence and people from *shore* that want to pay you a visit. (or in my case, charter guests)

I'd be of the school of thought that I would want some plan to keep someone from breaking into my boat (while I was locked inside). Not sure what that would be for country-hopping, but it probably wouldn't be a gun. My gun is for work and the USA, where I have seen more than my fair share of trouble on board.

I should point out, not suggesting that anyone get guns, but just pointing out... that a lot of this depends on the money and boat you have. Unfortunately, it seems the law/customs, etc... looks the other way when it comes to the wealthy. Nearly every megayacht I have worked on is armed to the teeth. They travel the globe and have their firearms ready to use at a moment's notice. The ultra-rich do indeed carry weapons when they cruise.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Chiroeurope View Post
I do not support firearms on a boat, nor am I against them. Shooting a person is an act that can and in many cases will kill them. As we were taught in MP school, when you draw that weapon, your intent had better be to kill them. We where taught shooting to wound is a foolish joke that most times does not work. Having seen the entire inside of the human body during my degree, I tend to agree with.

How we deal with a documentable increase in crime is a different story. It may or may not involve firearms. That is up to each person. While I can see their use, it is not a light one ever.

Sorry if I come across sharply but have spent the last year and a half spending time and money trying to get a real picture of the problem and not finding a lot of solid facts. Even those I know in a commercial side of things don't like talking about it and there are UK firms that now won't go by the Suez route do to not being able to get insurance to cover their ships.

There are a few islands that I have gotten information and some reports from but nothing solid. This is part of the problem. You get a report or newspaper posting (I read three languages well and can puzzle out two others) and than the road goes cold and when you contact national reporting centers you get conflicting information (nobody wants to harm their tourist trade).

The options on how to deal with it vary. Working as a community can help, but a head in the sand view never does.
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Old 27-03-2008, 09:40   #72
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NEVER bring a knife to a gun fight! Let alone a paint gun. That will just get you killed when they see that! Pirates are THUGS, and a welt will only PI$$ them off.
AS others have said, cruisers are almost never the victims of swashbuckling piracy. The stats don't lie. However, as many on this board have said in the numerous pirate threads, there is a fair chance that you might be the victim of someone trying to steal your dingy or other gear. Thievery. If you stumbled onto a thief in that instance, you might not want to pull a firearm. You might not want to kill someone just for being a thief. However, you might just love to shoot them with a paint ball gun, give them a few welts, and force them to submit. Don't underestimate a paint gun, they can be quite powerful.
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Old 27-03-2008, 11:00   #73
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Liberty,

For you that is the right answer, and we all get through life differently. I am hoping yours is peaceful, and very long. I am going to assume you have never been shot, shot at, or beaten to within an inch of your life by a complete stranger.

I owned a business in Oakland Calif, and was attacked by a man that was at least a foot taller than me. I kept a derringer in my pocket at all times, because Oakland is Oakland. The thought never crossed my mind to shoot this idiot even though we split apart for a moment.

Another time I was driving down the street, and some guy nearly hit me by cutting me off. I never cursed him, or threatened him. I told him to open his eyes. The car behind him completely unrelated pulled alongside me, and shot me. I was lucky, I saw the gun, and ducked. The bullet hit my tricep. If I had continued to sit I would be dead.

There are a lot of crazy people out there, and will kill you for nothing. Just read the news. These thugs have been beat before, so a large welt is nothing to them. All I am saying is I wouldn't pull out something that looks like a gun, and it is not meant to kill. That very act will leave you dead.
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Old 27-03-2008, 11:46   #74
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Liberty,

For you that is the right answer, and we all get through life differently. I am hoping yours is peaceful, and very long. I am going to assume you have never been shot, shot at, or beaten to within an inch of your life by a complete stranger.
No, I've never been shot. But, don't misinterpret my intentions. I am very pro-gun, have several myself, and have been following the supreme court case regarding the 2nd amendment since the case started.

It's just not worth my time to try to change other peoples' opinions. For people who aren't comfortable with guns or consider them overkill I am recommending the less than lethal option. I've read quite a few gun and pirate threads on this site. I pretty much understand where most of the regulars stand on the issue. "To each their own" is all I can say.
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Old 27-03-2008, 11:57   #75
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Liberty,
I am going to assume you have never been shot, shot at, or beaten to within an inch of your life by a complete stranger.
I owned a business in Oakland Calif, and was attacked by a man that was at least a foot taller than me.
Another time I was driving down the street, and some guy nearly hit me by cutting me off.
The car behind him completely unrelated pulled alongside me, and shot me.
I'm sorry that you've been beaten, cut off in traffic, and shot; and admire your remarkable self-restraint.
How has your Derringer helped secure your safety & good health?

Should you get to sailing offshore, I think you'll find that Sneuman & Liberty are right about the RELATIVE safety of life afloat.
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