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Old 25-03-2008, 09:32   #46
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Originally Posted by Greenhorn View Post
I can't see carrying anything more than a 12 ga. pump on board, for practical purposes. But I'm not trained for a fire-fight at sea.

I sleep pretty soundly with one of these... it's a (legal) sawed off. Good for close quarters. Really, you only need it for someone breaking down your companionway door after you have repeatedly warned them not to.

As to waterborne, offshore pirates, I'd say it's a judgement call. Have your gun (where legal) for defense, but it's stupid to start throwing sticks at a large hornet's nest.

Shooting off my shotgun at any more than a couple of intruders that were armed would likely get me killed, when maybe it was only going to be a robbery.... espeically if they had automatics and speedboats.

Luckily, pirates go after merchant ships, not us.
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Old 25-03-2008, 11:08   #47
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http://www.latitude38.com/LectronicLat/2005/0305/Mar18/Mar18.html

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Originally Posted by Sue View Post
<snip>. . . I would rather post a link to Lat. 38 where the same report was printed than post my copy without permission:
Edit: Seems the url won't copy. I'll try typing it in--still won't go. Just google: Pirate attack off Yemen Mahdi and Gandalf. Several sites will come up and you will be able to read the official report filed by Rod. It is interesting reading and should clear things up for those wondering. Sorry I couldn't make it easy to link to. The Lat 38 link comes up as March 18. <snip>
The link is actually to 'Lectronic Latitude of March 18. I'm having trouble getting the link icon to take it, as well, so I've put it in the title of this post - not clickable, however, so copy and paste.

TaoJones
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Old 25-03-2008, 14:40   #48
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Given that they (fishing panga) “abruptly veered off” after “a little peak of the pistol’, one might assume that you certainly gave them “a BAD FEELING”.

ssullivan
What’s "a (legal) sawed off", and where is it legal?
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Old 25-03-2008, 14:52   #49
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I understand avoiding areas of "possible" bad sea conditions that's seamanship but to purposfully go to a renowned area of danger is still beyond me?? My friends recently sailed from Aus via the Cocos-kealings and across the Indian ocean Sth of Madagascar to Sth Africa. They had a great trip, they were advised by a "Sth African" to day sail around the cape areas when conditions were favourable, this they did and sailed up to Luderitz as well.Then across to Sth America. It's the way to go as long as you don't go any further up the Africa coast, bad area for pirates also. It's a long way to go to get to the Med or UK but isn't that what cruising's about, taking the long way round and throwing the watch away? safe passages. Paul
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Old 25-03-2008, 16:42   #50
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Originally Posted by GordMay View Post
imagine2frolic
Given that they (fishing panga) “abruptly veered off” after “a little peak of the pistol’, one might assume that you certainly gave them “a BAD FEELING”.

ssullivan
What’s "a (legal) sawed off", and where is it legal?
Sawed-off is the best way to describe the gun. It's not literally sawed-off, just the legal production equivalent. Here's a link:

East Coast Firearms - AK-47 & AR-15 Rifles, Uzi, MP5 - Assault Weapons Specialist

It's an 18.5" barrel and shoots 6 12ga shells, pump action. I did a heck of a lot of research into the best gun for that time when somebody is breaking down your companionway and this is what I decided on.

I'll say it again. A gun should never be used unless it is your last resort of life or death. Never to go poking around with a firearm to find out who an intruder is unless they are literally breaking down your companionway door and you have verbally warned them to stop.

I got this gun because once you are backed into that life or death corner, it's a reasonable tool to get you back out. It doesn't take much more than a single shot of a 12ga at "salon close range" to stop that person who just won't stop coming into your locked up boat. So, having 6 shots, I'm pretty good to stop even a couple guys. This is what police use in close combat situations. I figure they know what to use. Theirs are shorter barrel lenghts though. The law doesn't apply to them.

PS: I'm thinking none of you guys will probably be breaking into any Catalac 10Ms anytime soon after this post... ha ha
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Old 25-03-2008, 19:29   #51
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I hope you have bird shot (no. 7 or so) as your first two (at least).
If you have buck shot (00) you need to research and change up.
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Old 25-03-2008, 20:07   #52
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Yeah, Sully. Watch out for those "cat" burglars! You just make it easy by giving them two boats worth of stuff instead of one!
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Old 26-03-2008, 03:19   #53
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Thanks, Sean.
Mossberg 500 Mariner
Marinecote, Heat Shield, Pistol Grip, 6 Shot 12 Gauge Pump Action,
Bead Sight, Cylinder Bore,
18 1/2 inch barrel, 28 3/4 inches overall length, 5 3/4 lbs.

I might add that, there's no more frightening sound, in the dark, than the "kachunk" of a pump chambering a round.

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Old 26-03-2008, 05:16   #54
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Hi Sue,
Thanks for the link to the piracy report involving Mahdi and Ghandalf. It certainly sounds like the incident reported was the one referred to by the other skipper on the BBC - he was en-route to Djbouti and as you know, these people smugglers / pirates run twix Somalia and Yemen.
And I was not inferring the incidents were the fault of the cruisers as clearly the pirates were the bad guys in both cases. But the UK skipper was pretty plain speaking about the typical MO before this reported incident and the modified MO after and I believe his views are interesting.
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Old 26-03-2008, 05:18   #55
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Originally Posted by Therapy View Post
I hope you have bird shot (no. 7 or so) as your first two (at least).
If you have buck shot (00) you need to research and change up.
I give up... please enlighten me. My reasearch says they are equivalent at close range:

Shotgun ammo: Difference between buckshot and birdshot? - Yahoo!7 Answers

View topic - birdshot target load in home defense

Shotgun Ammunition Question: Different load sizes, load types etc? please explain to a beginner? - Yahoo!Xtra Answers

Shotgun questions - Page 2 - XDTalk Forums - Your HS2000/SA-XD Information Source!

Shotgun - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

***Is it so I don't blow a hole in the boat and sink??

PS: "Cat" burglars! ha ha! Good one, Sneuman
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Old 26-03-2008, 06:39   #56
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Yea, sort of. Buck shot can kill out to 100yds, but not well, so lets just say 50yds. One buck shot is the same size (diameter) as a 38cal. bullet except it is round so is less weight (usually) and does not fly as straight, IE no rifling to make it spin.

All that means is if one shot (of 6-8) misses there is the remote possibility that you could kill your neighboring skipper, possibly through the hull - plastic of course. Of course if you miss altogether you are sending a pretty good spread over the anchorage.

Bird shot is explained well in one of your links - (4th) . It bothers me that the vote of 3 of your 4 links is to just use buck shot. That makes it seem the better argument. I just happen to disagree from all I have read and learned in the past.

------------------------------------------------------

This is part of your fourth link.
Every word is accurate in my opinion, based on my knowledge, but I could not resist adding font changes to highlight.

Many experienced shooters prefer #4 or #1 buckshot to 00. I really cannot argue, but Lt. Marshall is on record as stating that 00 is superior, both in penetration and stopping power. Good enough for me, but if you have a #4 or #1 buckshot jones, go ahead (Ayoob favors #1). Stay away from 2 3/4" Magnum or 3" Magnum loads, however - the brutal kick of these rounds makes them a bad choice, and you gain nothing in stopping power over the 2 3/4" standard loads. Controllability is important, and standard 12 gauge shells have quite enough kick as it is.
A note on shotgun spread: firing your shotgun does not create a diabolical cone of doom destroying all in its path. If you have a typical defense or "riot" gun with an 18"-20" open-choked "cylinder" barrel, the pellets will spread out about 1" for every yard of range. This means that the spread of pellets fired across a large room (18') will be 6" or so, a circle the size of a coffee cup saucer. At 50 feet, the spread will be the size of a large pizza (16"). Test-fire your shotgun at various ranges, using big white butcher paper targets to get an idea of the pattern you can expect. It is a common misconception that blasting at foes ten feet away will take out two or three of them. The spread at that range is just three inches, so you can see that I meant it when I said that the shotgun must be skillfully aimed and fired just like handguns and rifles. The shotgun is simply more likely to hit - and stop - the attacker.
Slugs are potent manstoppers, but have limited application for self-defense. Slugs have ferocious recoil and often over-penetrate. There are special situations where slugs might be preferred over buckshot (e.g. road-blocks, barricaded foes), but if you are interested in such esoterica I again direct you to Ayoob's masterful tome 'Stressfire II: Advanced Combat Shotgun'. This guide is for general civilian readers; policemen, soldiers, and gun enthusiasts should rely on Ayoob's in-depth expertise.
Don't be a knucklehead. Stay away from weirdo rounds like rubber buckshot or neoprene slugs. These are riot-control rounds designed for massed police use against violent mobs. Don't rely on such marginalia to save your life.
Two things to keep in mind about bird shot. The first is that bird shot is as lethal as buckshot at close range. Don't believe for a second that you can just wound someone with bird shot and he'll go on to live another day. If you aren't justified in killing a man, you aren't justified in wounding him, either. Never "shoot to wound." I once again direct you to read Ayoob's 'In the Gravest Extreme' and learn the truth.
The second thing is that bird shot makes a lot of sense for home defense. I keep my home-defense 12 gauge loaded with two #4 bird shot rounds followed by 00 buck. Bird shot is much less likely to penetrate thin interior walls and kill innocent people on the other side, and has lower recoil than buckshot for faster follow-up shots (I live in a thin-walled apartment house, however - if I lived in a solid house with a lot of land around, I would definitely choose buckshot instead). The stopping power of bird shot should not be under-estimated: at ranges out to thirty feet or so, bird shot is virtually a solid column of lead.
------------------------------------------

One other post added somewhere in it that just pointing in the general direction and pulling the trigger with a shotgun is sort of what people think will take care of the situation. NOT TRUE!. At a boat length it must be aimed.

Another link some person says how ineffective it is against body armor. I don't think you have to worry about that, and even if you do your own example of the cockpit door would be great. From inside the salon, through the door and a hit anywhere on the body armor and the guy (gal? - surely not) will not get up for quite some time. If you miss and hit arm or leg (or head) they will not get up again, more than likely ever again.

This is serious stuff because if it comes to it is instant decision making, messy, gross - very ugly. And almost never does a person go without recurring guilt and nightmares.

I have bird shot for the first two. I don't want to have a ball (s) go through the wall (s) and kill a family member. Far less chance of that with bird shot.

Shoot your gun sometime. You have to do that.

I know of a couple of brothers that played combat in the woods with bird shot. Yes they shot at each other. You hung behind a boat on a rope and they played army. All still alive as far as I know.

PS Don't fall for the pistol grip look. You (especially as an armature) have far less control.

Sorry for the long post. I just think I know a bit about this stuff.

Sorry again but........

PPS This part " at ranges out to thirty feet or so, bird shot is virtually a solid column of lead."

May make you think that in a house it makes no difference than buck shot but that is not so. All those little pellets don't have the penetrating power of larger balls. When the first pellets hit the wall they virtually stop and the ones behind start banging into the slowed/stopped ones and then they all start going all over the place - IE losing energy fast and spreading out. Across the anchorage they spread out and lose velocity/energy rapidly.

Sorry again...............
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Old 26-03-2008, 08:31   #57
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I think my first tactic if i had to cross up into the suez would be to try to pick the worst weather window I could find that would be favorable to me, ie 30 knots on the beam 10 foot seas, etc such that i could blow through there like a freight train and would be misery for those kinds of powerboats.

Then maybe it might be worth buying an AK47 just for the trip. If any one comes into range, a couple of warning shots would let them know to move on to the next helpless victim. This way, no chance of mowing down fisherman, but the pirates will know that you mean business. Unless they know that you are carrying a shipment of gold, they aren't going to intentionally walk into a fire fight. Of course, if they are already attacking you when you pull out the weapons, it is going to be a firefight. Then lose the AK47 once you reach civilization. Maybe to a fellow sailor making the reverse trip.
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Old 26-03-2008, 09:37   #58
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Thank you!

Very informative post. (sorry to drag this off topic, folks)

So I was *almost* right when I was thinking it was so I wouldn't blow a hole in the boat and sink. It was for conern of people out a hundred or two hundred feet away. Makes sense.

Since I agree (and you seem to be an expert) that bird shot is basically the same at "salon distances", your advice is well taken. I'll get some bird shot to minimize any un-intended damage past my companionway.

Thanks for the tip. Very helpful!

PS: I like JKZ's new program... leave an AK, take an AK... ha ha kind of like the leave a book, take a book thing, but much more intense. lol


Quote:
Originally Posted by Therapy View Post
Yea, sort of. Buck shot can kill out to 100yds, but not well, so lets just say 50yds. One buck shot is the same size (diameter) as a 38cal. bullet except it is round so is less weight (usually) and does not fly as straight, IE no rifling to make it spin.

All that means is if one shot (of 6-8) misses there is the remote possibility that you could kill your neighboring skipper, possibly through the hull - plastic of course. Of course if you miss altogether you are sending a pretty good spread over the anchorage.

Bird shot is explained well in one of your links - (4th) . It bothers me that the vote of 3 of your 4 links is to just use buck shot. That makes it seem the better argument. I just happen to disagree from all I have read and learned in the past.

------------------------------------------------------

This is part of your fourth link.
Every word is accurate in my opinion, based on my knowledge, but I could not resist adding font changes to highlight.

Many experienced shooters prefer #4 or #1 buckshot to 00. I really cannot argue, but Lt. Marshall is on record as stating that 00 is superior, both in penetration and stopping power. Good enough for me, but if you have a #4 or #1 buckshot jones, go ahead (Ayoob favors #1). Stay away from 2 3/4" Magnum or 3" Magnum loads, however - the brutal kick of these rounds makes them a bad choice, and you gain nothing in stopping power over the 2 3/4" standard loads. Controllability is important, and standard 12 gauge shells have quite enough kick as it is.
A note on shotgun spread: firing your shotgun does not create a diabolical cone of doom destroying all in its path. If you have a typical defense or "riot" gun with an 18"-20" open-choked "cylinder" barrel, the pellets will spread out about 1" for every yard of range. This means that the spread of pellets fired across a large room (18') will be 6" or so, a circle the size of a coffee cup saucer. At 50 feet, the spread will be the size of a large pizza (16"). Test-fire your shotgun at various ranges, using big white butcher paper targets to get an idea of the pattern you can expect. It is a common misconception that blasting at foes ten feet away will take out two or three of them. The spread at that range is just three inches, so you can see that I meant it when I said that the shotgun must be skillfully aimed and fired just like handguns and rifles. The shotgun is simply more likely to hit - and stop - the attacker.
Slugs are potent manstoppers, but have limited application for self-defense. Slugs have ferocious recoil and often over-penetrate. There are special situations where slugs might be preferred over buckshot (e.g. road-blocks, barricaded foes), but if you are interested in such esoterica I again direct you to Ayoob's masterful tome 'Stressfire II: Advanced Combat Shotgun'. This guide is for general civilian readers; policemen, soldiers, and gun enthusiasts should rely on Ayoob's in-depth expertise.
Don't be a knucklehead. Stay away from weirdo rounds like rubber buckshot or neoprene slugs. These are riot-control rounds designed for massed police use against violent mobs. Don't rely on such marginalia to save your life.
Two things to keep in mind about bird shot. The first is that bird shot is as lethal as buckshot at close range. Don't believe for a second that you can just wound someone with bird shot and he'll go on to live another day. If you aren't justified in killing a man, you aren't justified in wounding him, either. Never "shoot to wound." I once again direct you to read Ayoob's 'In the Gravest Extreme' and learn the truth.
The second thing is that bird shot makes a lot of sense for home defense. I keep my home-defense 12 gauge loaded with two #4 bird shot rounds followed by 00 buck. Bird shot is much less likely to penetrate thin interior walls and kill innocent people on the other side, and has lower recoil than buckshot for faster follow-up shots (I live in a thin-walled apartment house, however - if I lived in a solid house with a lot of land around, I would definitely choose buckshot instead). The stopping power of bird shot should not be under-estimated: at ranges out to thirty feet or so, bird shot is virtually a solid column of lead.
------------------------------------------

One other post added somewhere in it that just pointing in the general direction and pulling the trigger with a shotgun is sort of what people think will take care of the situation. NOT TRUE!. At a boat length it must be aimed.

Another link some person says how ineffective it is against body armor. I don't think you have to worry about that, and even if you do your own example of the cockpit door would be great. From inside the salon, through the door and a hit anywhere on the body armor and the guy (gal? - surely not) will not get up for quite some time. If you miss and hit arm or leg (or head) they will not get up again, more than likely ever again.

This is serious stuff because if it comes to it is instant decision making, messy, gross - very ugly. And almost never does a person go without recurring guilt and nightmares.

I have bird shot for the first two. I don't want to have a ball (s) go through the wall (s) and kill a family member. Far less chance of that with bird shot.

Shoot your gun sometime. You have to do that.

I know of a couple of brothers that played combat in the woods with bird shot. Yes they shot at each other. You hung behind a boat on a rope and they played army. All still alive as far as I know.

PS Don't fall for the pistol grip look. You (especially as an armature) have far less control.

Sorry for the long post. I just think I know a bit about this stuff.

Sorry again but........

PPS This part " at ranges out to thirty feet or so, bird shot is virtually a solid column of lead."

May make you think that in a house it makes no difference than buck shot but that is not so. All those little pellets don't have the penetrating power of larger balls. When the first pellets hit the wall they virtually stop and the ones behind start banging into the slowed/stopped ones and then they all start going all over the place - IE losing energy fast and spreading out. Across the anchorage they spread out and lose velocity/energy rapidly.

Sorry again...............
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Old 26-03-2008, 14:27   #59
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PS: I like JKZ's new program... leave an AK, take an AK... ha ha kind of like the leave a book, take a book thing, but much more intense. lol
You beat me to it.

Maybe it could be a money maker like the tires and lines for the Panama Canal.
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Old 26-03-2008, 23:29   #60
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