Piracy and Firearms - Another View

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by sneuman

For the record, I have lived and sailed in Hong Kong and Thailand (including S. China Sea, Gulf of Thailand and Andaman Sea) also, lived in India and traveled extensively in Pakistan and Afghanistan, but have cruised nowhere near as far and wide as you.

Great, we hope to visit all those places when we get to Asia.

In Thailand several years ago there was a high profile incident of an American ex pat teacher who assaulted some of his students. My ex-wife, who was a teacher, along with many other ex-pat teachers, were put through the ringer on work visas after that. Recruiting from abroad was virtually shut down for a year.

Exactly. The ex-pat was the criminal and his crimes were not acceptable to the Thai people and they even showed their anger to other gringo's. Even though that might not be fair, it's understandable and it happens in every society (remember all "Asians" being rounded up in the US after Pearl Harbor).

But you are turning the matter upside down. The subject of this thread is pirates and those are the criminals, not the cruisers that defend themselves against the pirates with a gun. Every time pirates get shot by cruisers, the local community shows their support for the cruisers involved, and their disgust for the pirates, no matter if they are their countrymen.

Do you remember these guys?: http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...les-11897.html

I don't know them, they are in the same places we've been a couple years before they got there (they can't even sail their boat without a captain, they are not cruisers). I checked their blog and think you are referring to their trouble with the French rigger/sailmaker in Grenada? Those guys did things in the aftermath of Ivan that are very ugly and should be avoided at all cost. They are not locals. The Freebirds did not avoid them. But I can't find anything about Freebirds shooting people or even having a gun??!! You think it's people like that who would cause trouble when they have a gun aboard? I agree that they are "different" but I see no blazing guns.

There's no pirates in the East Caribbean. The first ones to meet are west in Venezuela. There are criminals in the East Caribbean though and some target cruisers at anchor. I can't come up with an example of armed defense against criminals there but I do know what happened to the unarmed Dutch couple anchored in St Lucia: he got beat up badly and she was raped over and over.

You seem to suggest that you can personally vouche for everyone out there (except for that one guy who was, as you admitted, a serious menace).

The guy I mentioned wasn't a menace at all, but he was too irresponsible to handle a gun in my opinion (he never "handled" it but he talked about it). He sold his boat years ago. He wasn't a cruiser either.
Why would I vouch for anyone? I just made observations about the cruisers we meet in different places. I would never advocate to throw yourself at the mercy of pirates just because there are some cruisers who can't handle a gun.

cheers,
Nick.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by GordMay

This may be, perhaps, just a slight misrepresentation, unsupported by fact.

➥ Somali pirates spreading wealth in an unusual manner - Afrik.com : Africa news, Maghreb news - The african daily newspaper

➥ Pirates, Inc.: Inside the booming Somali business | csmonitor.com

➥ BBC NEWS | Africa | Life in Somalia's pirate town

I read the links but I'm not sure what you think is a misrepresentation? The money, houses, cars or the women?

cheers,
Nick.

[sneuman]

Jedi, the example of the pedophile is relevant. If you shoot somebody in a manslaughter situation, where it might or might not be compounded by illegal posession of a firearm (and they are illegal in some countries), you are the ex pat criminal that makes it bad for the rest of us.

As for the Freebirds, I believe they must have deleted the most egregious stuff from their blog, but if you look at what was written on CF, you get the idea. They basically sneaked out of a country leaving a huge bill behind. It goes to your argument that all cruisers are respectful of other countries, their laws and their customs. Obviously, these folks were not.

I'm also curious about these cruisers in Indonesia you mentioned in an earlier post who brandish their rifles to the locals. Why are they doing that? To the best of my knowledge, Indonesian waters are safe.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by sneuman

Jedi, the example of the pedophile is relevant. If you shoot somebody in a manslaughter situation, where it might or might not be compounded by illegal posession of a firearm (and they are illegal in some countries), you are the ex pat criminal that makes it bad for the rest of us.

I don't think I can follow you. What do pedophiles have to do with pirates? I am talking about self-defense against pirates while you are talking about manslaughter and illegal possession of firearms which are two wildly different things. We carry no illegal firearms and every cruiser should declare everything aboard. All the stories about ending up in jail are the result of criminal activity like not declaring guns with the customs officials. The most difficult country to enter with a gun aboard is the US and the only reason we plan to do that is because we need it further on (north) where we are required to have a gun for protection against polar bears.

When an ex-pat commits a crime in some country (he's a criminal in that case, right?): sure that's bad. But it has nothing to do with this thread!

In International waters there are no illegal guns and you have every right to shoot pirates when they come for you. Don't try to make it sound like it's criminal to do that; the pirates are the criminals. The last successful case I recall of pirates being repelled by armed cruisers was at an island off Puerto La Cruz, Venezuela. One cruiser died as he was shot when handing water over to the "fisherman" that had asked for it. A cruiser anchored nearby shot (and killed?) the pirates and took a bullet in his thigh in return. The Venezuelan authorities praised him. He did not get into trouble with the authorities at all and this happened within Venezuelan waters. You will never find an example where the armed cruiser got into trouble after shooting a pirate.

As for the Freebirds, I believe they must have deleted the most egregious stuff from their blog, but if you look at what was written on CF, you get the idea.

Sorry, I don't.

They basically sneaked out of a country leaving a huge bill behind. It goes to your argument that all cruisers are respectful of other countries, their laws and their customs. Obviously, these folks were not.

You must have missed what I wrote about that previously. Those were not locals, they don't even have Grenadian passports (they are French) and they are not nice businessmen. They should be send back where they came from by the Grenadians after what they did to hurricane Ivan victims and their boats. There's more to it than the way you see it now.

I'm also curious about these cruisers in Indonesia you mentioned in an earlier post who brandish their rifles to the locals. Why are they doing that? To the best of my knowledge, Indonesian waters are safe.

This thread is getting too long. I had to go back to post #100 to find that you were the one bringing forward the example of the "gap-toothed Indonesian pirate". I never wrote about any cruisers brandishing rifles to locals anywhere. I have never seen something close to that happen.

I am going to stop participating in this thread now because I find myself replying to matters that have nothing to do with the topic. I can't understand why pedophiles, criminal ex-pats, illegal weapon possession etc. have to come up in a thread about defending against pirates.

cheers,
Nick.

[sneuman]

Nick,

you said:
All of these people have a machete, I would be worried when I see one without it. The cruisers are not surprised when they see locals with machetes. Many of them have a gun too (when they can afford it) and they find it absolutely normal when the visiting cruisers have guns.

My mistake remembering it was specifically in Indonesia. How would locals even know that visiting cruisers had guns aboard unless they were being brandished or there wasn't a general annoucement about gun ownership when dropping into the local anchorage.

On its face, it's a bizarre statement that requires some explanation.

[Christian Van H]

Originally Posted by sneuman

How would locals even know that visiting cruisers had guns aboard unless they were being brandished or there wasn't a general annoucement about gun ownership when dropping into the local anchorage.

Perhaps a flag or burgee could be flown? The bigger the burgee, the bigger the caliber!

[s/v Jedi]

Ah, okay. They know because wise cruisers declare their guns aboard. Simple as that. They never even wanted to see it.

Here in Panama, when locals go for a stroll through the jungle, they take their shotgun if they can afford one. All of them have a machete. At the banks they have special lockers to leave your gun when you go inside. The supermarkets have "no guns inside" stickers instead of "no food or drinks inside". A gun in Central America is like an expensive lighter in the west.

cheers,
Nick.

[Gene :^)]

I know the gun debate is in every aspect of life, but lets just focus on the Boating/Cruisers.

I just don't understand why there is ANY debate at all about cruisers carrying legal, registered, and declared weapons for self defense.

I have never heard of the PRO-Gun crowd trying to make laws or in some way "force" the ANTI-Gun crowd to carry weapons.

Yet all the time it is the ANTI-Gun crowd trying to make laws or "force" the PRO-Gun crowd to NOT carry weapons. What is the logic in this? It is ridiculous in the cruising community.

This does not make any sense at all. The cruisers that carry legal, registered, and declared weapons are NOT the DANGER when cruising. The criminals are the danger, and yes they could be locals or they could be fellow cruisers. The POINT is that they are CRIMINALS and criminals don't follow the laws, be them locals or cruisers.

Making a law to stop good, legal cruisers from carrying a registered and declared weapon will do nothing to control criminals. In fact, it would make the criminals bolder knowing law abiding citizens are un-armed and defenseless.

Cruisers that carry legal, registered, and declared weapons DO NOT kill or attack other cruisers. And unless you are illegally boarding at night and trying to break into a boat, you will not be "accidentally shot" by a fellow cruiser.

ANTI-Gun cruisers asking PRO-Gun cruisers to NOT carry weapons is about as silly as asking police to not carry weapons. What point is there?

I think the problem is that ANTI-Gun cruisers think that fewer guns on the water will lead to fewer incidents. The flaw there is that they are only taking guns away from the good side which would only increase violence from the bad side.

I have not posted in a long time, and I doubt I will bother with replying to any more on this topic. The logic just is not there. Common sense is not very common at all.

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by Gene :^)

... I have never heard of the PRO-Gun crowd trying to make laws or in some way "force" the ANTI-Gun crowd to carry weapons.

... Common sense is not very common at all.

I totally agree with your closing statement.

I also agree with your unstated sentiment (I hope I’m not over-presuming) that there’s an overabundance of emotional over-statement & exaggeration in discussions like these.

FWIW:
In 1982 Kennesaw, Georgia, passed a bylaw which required all heads of households to own a gun and ammo. Exceptions were made for felons, conscientious objectors, and people who can't afford a gun.
Evidently, nobody has been prosecuted for failing to pack heat. When the town's gun law was passed, about 70 percent of households likely owned a gun. But Atlanta commuters have since swelled the town's population (6 fold) and, ironically, gun ownership now is only about 50 percent.

I haven’t noticed anyone threatening to take your gun away from you; though some of us argue passionately (against) the prudence of assuming a Rambo attitude.

[sneuman]

Originally Posted by Gene :^)

Making a law to stop good, legal cruisers from carrying a registered and declared weapon will do nothing to control criminals. In fact, it would make the criminals bolder knowing law abiding citizens are un-armed and defenseless.

Who said anything about a law? No one. It wouldn't even be possible.

[Fishman_Tx]

IMHO, I think the one thing people keep getting twisted is that guns don't kill people, people kill people. Look at the places they are banned. Only criminals have guns and John Q. Public is at their mercy. Pro-gun..Anti-gun...It's just a matter of preference. I don't see what ya'll are so afraid of. If my boat sat right next to yours and we had drank beers together and partied etc..etc. You'd never know I had 3 weapons stashed in my boat unless I told you about it. Would you fear me now that I have told you? Like I said in another thread,..

"Being snide about it <gun ownership> doesn't help anything but causes further angst and anger. Make your own choices and live your own life, but don't expect the rest of us to live the same way."

[sneuman]

Originally Posted by Fishman_Tx

IMHO, I think the one thing people keep getting twisted is that guns don't kill people, people kill people. Look at the places they are banned. Only criminals have guns and John Q. Public is at their mercy. Pro-gun..Anti-gun...It's just a matter of preference. I don't see what ya'll are so afraid of. If my boat sat right next to yours and we had drank beers together and partied etc..etc. You'd never know I had 3 weapons stashed in my boat unless I told you about it. Would you fear me now that I have told you? Like I said in another thread,..

Actually, if you want to get technical, it's bullets that kill people.

[Fishman_Tx]

Originally Posted by sneuman

Who said anything about a law? No one. It wouldn't even be possible.

Oh yes it is. It is happening on a country-by-country basis. Before you know it, you won't be able to make landfall anywhere with a weapon on board. I'll refer to the old adage of the frog in the boiling water.

"stay asleep! we're not taking your rights away! your not being monitored! we're not listening to your phone calls! your just dreaming or your mistaken"

wake up!

[sneuman]

Originally Posted by Fishman_Tx

"stay asleep! we're not taking your rights away! your not being monitored! we're not listening to your phone calls! your just dreaming or your mistaken"

wake up!

I said a law isn't possible.

But you seem to be suggesting that those countries ought not be entitled to their soverignty and their own laws.

And if it is indeed so, as you say, what would be the motivation? Could it be that governments have the very concerns already expressed on this thread?

I don't think it's out of the question at all for governments to not want foreigners with guns sailing into their waters and anchoring within sight of major population centers.

Nick mentioned that the U.S. is the most restrictive nation in this sense.

Well, if you're not a U.S. citizen it is forbidden by law to import weapons. Of course. People would go ballistic (pun intended) if a bunch of armed foreigners in boats were anchored off Miami.

I suggest that if you're really concerned about this issue, you ought to first have the U.S. law repealed. What's good for the goose.

[Boracay]

If all yous must use quotes within quotes within quotes please make sure you put the slash(/) within the closing square brackets to ensure it's displayed correctly.

Previewing your post before posting is also a good idea.

Oh, and keep it very relevant to cruising.