Personal Locator Beacon as boat's EPIRB?

[Dockhead]

[QUOTE=ASTBoone;2005322]

Originally Posted by Rustic Charm

Rustic Charm, I didn't twist your words or accuse you of saying anything. I simply asked a question because I didn't understand what you were saying.
Don't worry about having to respond because I will no longer be a member of this forum. Seems a person can't make a comment on this site without being attacked by the same bunch of arrogant know it alls.
And yes. Despite the statistics. saying most epirb rescues take place at the boat or liferaft, (which is a no Brainer) I would still recommend carrying a plb just in case you do get separated. Its called Preperation...

Gentlemen, please be more patient with each other. I don't see any ill intent on either side of this conversation, just some avoidable misunderstandings. Peace to both of you. There are tons of useful information in this thread.

[ASTBoone]

[QUOTE=Dockhead;2005681]

Originally Posted by ASTBoone

Gentlemen, please be more patient with each other. I don't see any ill intent on either side of this conversation, just some avoidable misunderstandings. Peace to both of you. There are tons of useful information in this thread.

I want to apologize to the forum for my comments. I do enjoy the comments on here and after thinking about it, maybe I'm the arrogant know it all that I mentioned in my last post.

I have been studying survival for over forty years now and it's a subject that is close to my heart. I suppose I get a little irritated when I'm trying to advise someone on survival, then spend a lot of wasted time arguing with people who says things like you don't need a life jacket, or you can't get hypothermia in the Gulf, etc.
I know I'm not always right, but I do have an insight to this subject that others may not. I am a certified Alaska Marine Safety Education Association Instructor and I have been on several hundred over-water rescues over the twenty-three years that I spent flying as a CG aircrewman with probably around 2000 flight hours just looking for EPIRB alerts (mostly false).
After my retirement I started my companies Aviation Survival Technologies and Marine Survival Technologies and I currently go to most of the airshows and some boat shows to demonstrate water survival techniques to aviators who regularly fly over water. In fact, I have set up a swimming pool in Sebring FL and will be in the pool (outside!) later this month showing aviators how to get out of their aircraft with a life raft and other essential gear. Anyone want to join me in the pool?
I have had the opportunity to question several survivors about their events and what they did to survive in the cold Alaskan waters. I continue to learn from others and I base much of my teachings on trend analysis events that happen during a typical survival stay.
Applying statistics and percentages to determine a survival outcome does not work. Survival doesn't care how experienced you are, nor what your percentages based on statistics equal. Once you get into a survival situation, it will domino drop until you are dead. Only you can stop the dominos from dropping. If you do not prepare for ALL scenarios, if you do not have a survival plan, you will make it much harder to survive.That's a fact, not opinion.
Rustic Charm, you say that my: I'd rather them find me than find my boat" would only apply to a solo boater and not to multiple crew members because statistics show the on 52 percent of the cases EPIRB rescues happen at the boat or at a life raft. What about the other 42 percent who were not rescued at the boat or life raft? Do we just blow them off? The analogy would be the same as saying don't bother wearing a life jacket because most of the time you won't need it. Once you splash into the water, there are no "time-outs" or "do-overs". What you have on you is what you will have with you, Period. With a PLB you have a land line, a connection to the very people who are coming to rescue you. CG aircraft can lock onto a EPIRB or PLB signal from 150 miles out! Once the signal is received, they flip the DF switch and the aircraft literally flies itself to your exact position. At a cost of less than $250.00 US, why would you not have this valuable lifesaving device attached to your hip any time you go offshore or even hiking in a remote area? Don't assume that you won't need it based upon a statistic that says most of the time you won't.

Rustic Charm, I have a lot of respect for your knowledge and input that you place on this forum. I hope that we can continue to discuss other topics and yes, it's okay if we disagree on some things. That's what a forum is for. I will try to be a little more tolerant in the future.

[Rustic Charm]

[QUOTE=ASTBoone;2005978]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I want to apologize to the forum for my comments. I do enjoy the comments on here and after thinking about it, maybe I'm the arrogant know it all that I mentioned in my last post.

I have been studying survival for over forty years now and it's a subject that is close to my heart. I suppose I get a little irritated when I'm trying to advise someone on survival, then spend a lot of wasted time arguing with people who says things like you don't need a life jacket, or you can't get hypothermia in the Gulf, etc.
I know I'm not always right, but I do have an insight to this subject that others may not. I am a certified Alaska Marine Safety Education Association Instructor and I have been on several hundred over-water rescues over the twenty-three years that I spent flying as a CG aircrewman with probably around 2000 flight hours just looking for EPIRB alerts (mostly false).
After my retirement I started my companies Aviation Survival Technologies and Marine Survival Technologies and I currently go to most of the airshows and some boat shows to demonstrate water survival techniques to aviators who regularly fly over water. In fact, I have set up a swimming pool in Sebring FL and will be in the pool (outside!) later this month showing aviators how to get out of their aircraft with a life raft and other essential gear. Anyone want to join me in the pool?
I have had the opportunity to question several survivors about their events and what they did to survive in the cold Alaskan waters. I continue to learn from others and I base much of my teachings on trend analysis events that happen during a typical survival stay.
Applying statistics and percentages to determine a survival outcome does not work. Survival doesn't care how experienced you are, nor what your percentages based on statistics equal. Once you get into a survival situation, it will domino drop until you are dead. Only you can stop the dominos from dropping. If you do not prepare for ALL scenarios, if you do not have a survival plan, you will make it much harder to survive.That's a fact, not opinion.
Rustic Charm, you say that my: I'd rather them find me than find my boat" would only apply to a solo boater and not to multiple crew members because statistics show the on 52 percent of the cases EPIRB rescues happen at the boat or at a life raft. What about the other 42 percent who were not rescued at the boat or life raft? Do we just blow them off? The analogy would be the same as saying don't bother wearing a life jacket because most of the time you won't need it. Once you splash into the water, there are no "time-outs" or "do-overs". What you have on you is what you will have with you, Period. With a PLB you have a land line, a connection to the very people who are coming to rescue you. CG aircraft can lock onto a EPIRB or PLB signal from 150 miles out! Once the signal is received, they flip the DF switch and the aircraft literally flies itself to your exact position. At a cost of less than $250.00 US, why would you not have this valuable lifesaving device attached to your hip any time you go offshore or even hiking in a remote area? Don't assume that you won't need it based upon a statistic that says most of the time you won't.

Rustic Charm, I have a lot of respect for your knowledge and input that you place on this forum. I hope that we can continue to discuss other topics and yes, it's okay if we disagree on some things. That's what a forum is for. I will try to be a little more tolerant in the future.

Well, I certainly won't question your expertise

I think you have jumped to conclusions and seem to be assuming I'm against PLB's. I'm not. I can't afford to have muliple PLB's on my boat, so I have just one equipped with GPS for anyone doing night watches to wear.

Nor was I intending to make much of statistics (of which 79.96% are simply made up).

All I was really emphasising is that sailors should prioritise staying with the boat as that is where most rescues occur.. nothing more.

I think people like yourself (highly skilled and experts in their fields) on CF find the forum exceptionally frustrating at times because you are often discussing things with amatures (like me). But you also make assumptions that those you are conversing with are all amatures with no knowledge at all and have limited understanding of most things and that sometimes comes across as quite condoscending. So, if I may offer a little advice, that is to ask more questions if you don't know what the other person is getting at, rather than make assumptions.

And you should probably, if not already, hop across to the DSC discussion where your input might be helpful too.

DSC Basics - Page 8 - Cruisers & Sailing Forums

[ASTBoone]

[QUOTE=Rustic Charm;2006296]

Originally Posted by ASTBoone

Well, I certainly won't question your expertise

I think you have jumped to conclusions and seem to be assuming I'm against PLB's. I'm not. I can't afford to have muliple PLB's on my boat, so I have just one equipped with GPS for anyone doing night watches to wear.

Nor was I intending to make much of statistics (of which 79.96% are simply made up).

All I was really emphasising is that sailors should prioritise staying with the boat as that is where most rescues occur.. nothing more.

I think people like yourself (highly skilled and experts in their fields) on CF find the forum exceptionally frustrating at times because you are often discussing things with amatures (like me). But you also make assumptions that those you are conversing with are all amatures with no knowledge at all and have limited understanding of most things and that sometimes comes across as quite condoscending. So, if I may offer a little advice, that is to ask more questions if you don't know what the other person is getting at, rather than make assumptions.

And you should probably, if not already, hop across to the DSC discussion where your input might be helpful too.

DSC Basics - Page 8 - Cruisers & Sailing Forums

Thanks for the critique Rustic Charm, I didn't mean to imply that you were against PLBs, I know better from seeing many of your threads on here.
I'm so used to speaking with aviators who really don't have the knowledge about these things and perhaps that's why I come across as condescending at times. I also realize that many people on this forum are not experienced sailors and may not have this information. You know, the part where the speaker says, I know most of you know this information but bear with me while I explain it to those who don't.

[Dockhead]

[QUOTE=ASTBoone;2005978]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I want to apologize to the forum for my comments. I do enjoy the comments on here and after thinking about it, maybe I'm the arrogant know it all that I mentioned in my last post.

I have been studying survival for over forty years now and it's a subject that is close to my heart. I suppose I get a little irritated when I'm trying to advise someone on survival, then spend a lot of wasted time arguing with people who says things like you don't need a life jacket, or you can't get hypothermia in the Gulf, etc.
I know I'm not always right, but I do have an insight to this subject that others may not. I am a certified Alaska Marine Safety Education Association Instructor and I have been on several hundred over-water rescues over the twenty-three years that I spent flying as a CG aircrewman with probably around 2000 flight hours just looking for EPIRB alerts (mostly false).
After my retirement I started my companies Aviation Survival Technologies and Marine Survival Technologies and I currently go to most of the airshows and some boat shows to demonstrate water survival techniques to aviators who regularly fly over water. In fact, I have set up a swimming pool in Sebring FL and will be in the pool (outside!) later this month showing aviators how to get out of their aircraft with a life raft and other essential gear. Anyone want to join me in the pool?
I have had the opportunity to question several survivors about their events and what they did to survive in the cold Alaskan waters. I continue to learn from others and I base much of my teachings on trend analysis events that happen during a typical survival stay.
Applying statistics and percentages to determine a survival outcome does not work. Survival doesn't care how experienced you are, nor what your percentages based on statistics equal. Once you get into a survival situation, it will domino drop until you are dead. Only you can stop the dominos from dropping. If you do not prepare for ALL scenarios, if you do not have a survival plan, you will make it much harder to survive.That's a fact, not opinion.
Rustic Charm, you say that my: I'd rather them find me than find my boat" would only apply to a solo boater and not to multiple crew members because statistics show the on 52 percent of the cases EPIRB rescues happen at the boat or at a life raft. What about the other 42 percent who were not rescued at the boat or life raft? Do we just blow them off? The analogy would be the same as saying don't bother wearing a life jacket because most of the time you won't need it. Once you splash into the water, there are no "time-outs" or "do-overs". What you have on you is what you will have with you, Period. With a PLB you have a land line, a connection to the very people who are coming to rescue you. CG aircraft can lock onto a EPIRB or PLB signal from 150 miles out! Once the signal is received, they flip the DF switch and the aircraft literally flies itself to your exact position. At a cost of less than $250.00 US, why would you not have this valuable lifesaving device attached to your hip any time you go offshore or even hiking in a remote area? Don't assume that you won't need it based upon a statistic that says most of the time you won't.

Rustic Charm, I have a lot of respect for your knowledge and input that you place on this forum. I hope that we can continue to discuss other topics and yes, it's okay if we disagree on some things. That's what a forum is for. I will try to be a little more tolerant in the future.

We will look forward very much to your contributions!

It's in the nature of things on Internet fora that they throw people from all kinds of backgrounds and totally different levels of knowledge into the same space. It means a Nobel Prize winner might find himself arguing with a high school student -- because everyone has a voice. That's just how it works. But what happens is that what is true and right generally floats to the top eventually, sometimes in a sea of carp, but still. And sometimes even the Nobel Prize winner hears something new and interesting from the high school student

It is also in the nature of things on the Internet that the anonymity of it brings out the best and worst in people -- being a "blow hard know-it-all" is actually the least of it , and can apply to probably most of us here even at our best . Certainly I'm guilty of this on a regular basis. People get grumpy and sometimes can be nastier than they would be if they were face to face with you.

I think you'll find that a good dose of good humor will pay back a thousand fold (but isn't that true in real life as well?). It's easy to just ignore what's not valuable, and focus in on comments which are valuable and people whose opinions you value more.

[Dr. Sea]

Much earlier in this thread there was a discussion of which EPIRB's can be registered in which countries. For instance, Australia will register EPIRB's that must be manually activated while USA will register only those that can be automatically or manually activated. I wrote to the Product and Approvals Manager of Ocean Signal, which is UK company, and asked if Ocean Signal EPIRB's can be registered in the USA. He answered:

"There is no limitation on where EPIRBs and PLBs can be registered, but most countries will only register a beacon configured with that counties identity. If you buy an Ocean Signal EPIRB in the US, it will already be configured for the US."

[ASTBoone]

You can also have a code change on the units. For instance, If coded for the U.S., you can send your unit into the manufacturer or nearest servicing station to have the code changed to your country code. They usually charge around $50.00 to do this in the U.S.

[Rustic Charm]

Originally Posted by Dr. Sea

Much earlier in this thread there was a discussion of which EPIRB's can be registered in which countries. For instance, Australia will register EPIRB's that must be manually activated while USA will register only those that can be automatically or manually activated. I wrote to the Product and Approvals Manager of Ocean Signal, which is UK company, and asked if Ocean Signal EPIRB's can be registered in the USA. He answered:

"There is no limitation on where EPIRBs and PLBs can be registered, but most countries will only register a beacon configured with that counties identity. If you buy an Ocean Signal EPIRB in the US, it will already be configured for the US."

. "For instance, Australia will register EPIRB's that must be manually activated"

Where did you get this idea from? I dont believe anyone suggested this and you can certainly purchase automatic epirbs in Australia.

[Dr. Sea]

Originally Posted by Rustic Charm

. "For instance, Australia will register EPIRB's that must be manually activated"

Where did you get this idea from? I dont believe anyone suggested this and you can certainly purchase automatic epirbs in Australia.

I got it from you in post #15 in this thread: "One reason US epirbs may be more expensive is because US Epirbs seem to be sold only as automatic on when in the water, where as the main type sold in Australia are fully manual models. $299 is a common price here with $245 coming up occasionally on special sales or promotions."

Did I misunderstand you?

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by Tim L.

Have never seen a full-function EPIRB for less than $400-700. .

Maybe look a bit more? We recently bought a GME accusat EPIRB, 10 year battery life, GPS equipped, for $285 Aus. And NOTHING is cheap in Aus!

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by Rustic Charm

. "For instance, Australia will register EPIRB's that must be manually activated"

Where did you get this idea from? I dont believe anyone suggested this and you can certainly purchase automatic epirbs in Australia.

The one doesn't exclude the other.

[Factor]

Just a gentle reminder, in this part of the world any vessel not:

(a) in smooth waters; or
(b) in partially smooth waters; or
(c) within 2n miles from land.

needs to carry and EPIRB and statutorily a PLB does not meet the definition of EPIRB. PLBs are great things, but you MUST have an EPIRB.

[Rustic Charm]

Originally Posted by Dr. Sea

I got it from you in post #15 in this thread: "One reason US epirbs may be more expensive is because US Epirbs seem to be sold only as automatic on when in the water, where as the main type sold in Australia are fully manual models. $299 is a common price here with $245 coming up occasionally on special sales or promotions."

Did I misunderstand you?

Yes, you misunderstood. Very much so. I said nothing about registering them in this quote. AMSA will register any epirb, whether it's fully automatic or fully manual.

As I previously said in the post no.15, 'the main type sold in Australia are fully manual models'. You can still purchase automatic ones and by automatic I mean 'water activated'.

[Dr. Sea]

Originally Posted by Rustic Charm

Yes, you misunderstood. Very much so. I said nothing about registering them in this quote. AMSA will register any epirb, whether it's fully automatic or fully manual.

As I previously said in the post no.15, 'the main type sold in Australia are fully manual models'. You can still purchase automatic ones and by automatic I mean 'water activated'.

I would be greatly surprised to learn that any country would not accept an automatic water-activated EPIRB. But I was surprised to know that Australia will accept fully manual models. When I chartered in the Whitsundays a few years ago I learned that Australian marine safety standards seem to be more stringent that those of the USA. I would not want an EPIRB that was not water activated (with the option of manual activation), so the only question left is whether a fully manual model is acceptable to the authorities that matter (Coast Guard, insurance companies, etc.) in countries such as the USA where automatic water activation is the norm.

[Rustic Charm]

Originally Posted by Dr. Sea

I would be greatly surprised to learn that any country would not accept an automatic water-activated EPIRB. But I was surprised to know that Australia will accept fully manual models. When I chartered in the Whitsundays a few years ago I learned that Australian marine safety standards seem to be more stringent that those of the USA. I would not want an EPIRB that was not water activated (with the option of manual activation), so the only question left is whether a fully manual model is acceptable to the authorities that matter (Coast Guard, insurance companies, etc.) in countries such as the USA where automatic water activation is the norm.

The benefit of manual models is that they can't be set off by simply getting wet. The decision to activate them has to be deliberate.

In addition, having manual models brings the cost down (compare the cost to Australian) and with the cost down (Under $300 Aust) it puts them within the means of ALL boaters and most bushwalkers and off road enthusiasts too.