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Old 07-02-2016, 17:02   #121
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Re: Personal Locator Beacon as boat's EPIRB?

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I beg to differ regarding the Aussie situation. Unless one is single handing, the closest SAR assett to the MOB is almost always the mother ship from whence the MOB departed. AIS / DSC will alert and guide the remaining crew towards the MOB.

That said, some (like me) have a greater faith in the AMSA RCC than the remaing onboard crew so carry a PLB.
No, we agree on this I did add it to the post I put up but I'm betting you replied from the email
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Old 07-02-2016, 18:08   #122
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Re: Personal Locator Beacon as boat's EPIRB?

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No, we agree on this I did add it to the post I put up but I'm betting you replied from the email
Ahh… Wottie posts too fast
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Old 07-02-2016, 21:02   #123
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Re: Personal Locator Beacon as boat's EPIRB?

Well, Wottie,

If you trial one of those personal AIS ones, I promise we'll come and pick you up, if you jump overboard. Well, maybe just lower the boarding ladder to you.

ann
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Old 08-02-2016, 10:13   #124
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Re: Personal Locator Beacon as boat's EPIRB?

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I'm a little surprised I'm reading this, let alone that others think it's a great idea.

I can only really comment on AUSTRALIAN search and rescue area, which is pretty damn big. But in our area, if I have a MOB the quickest response you will get will be from a PLB and definately NOT AIS. I know, I know, CF posters will say AIS and DSC has been around for years and years.. BUT in recreational Australia AIS is still relatively new and DSC is VERY new.. receivers are more common that transponders, but even with receivers I constantly come across sailors who have sailed their whole lives and still don't even have a receiver.

And this bit "but in a crew-overboard situation the length of time it would take for the signal to make the rounds from PLB to satellite to Coast Guard to your emergency contacts at home to local SAR vessels to the person in the water would simply make it nearly worthless". is not what happens in Australia. All alerts from PLB's and Epirbs are acted on immediately the signal comes in. If it's within helicopter range, then they dispatch a helicopter.

If I have an MOB in Australian waters, I'd want to first be relying on Search and Rescue before relying on other vessels who are not sent via AMSA.

I can see their benefit if your lost off a vessel WITH AIS however. It would then be a very quick recovery from your own yacht. But then it's more of a MOB instrument.
Rustic, Your comment that Australia has such a large area is even more reason to rely on AIS or DSC. In my twenty years as a U.S. Coast Guard aircrewmember, I have seen the progression of EPIRBs and I think you already know that I am a big proponent of PLBs, but Dr. Sea is correct when he says that there is a time lapse due to a progression of information gathering before they launch a SAR case. I have probably flown on well over 200 searches for EPIRBs (pre-406 technology) and I would say that about 90% were false alerts. Because you now have to register your ELT (EPIRB, PLB, aircraft ELT), with your name phone number, address, etc., the system helps to prevent a costly launch for false alerts. Believe me when I tell you that the SAR coordination center is going to make that call before they launch. After the call, they will compile as much information as they can, it is put in a computer that will determine your probability of detection, and probability of survival. They will also gather as much information about the area of the distress, such as wind direction, swell direction as they can. So yes there is a time lapse. Then the large area that you mentioned. It could take hours to get on scene.
Because I crewed in a C-130, we could not swoop down and rescue people, so we did the next best thing. We broadcasted from our radios, anyone within sound of this broadcast please respond for assistance of a fellow mariner. When we received replies back, we calculated the closest two vessels and diverted them to the distressed vessel. This is essentially what AIS does without the time lapse of the coordination of the SAR and the flight time to on-scene.
The MASTREP system plots the position of all the AIS registered vessels (both commercial and recreational) and allows SAR resources to contact those vessels that are the closest to the distressed vessel while the SAR coordinators are preparing to launch. This is great technology! Yes, it's new, but lets don't under-mind the benifits.
All VHF marine radios sold today are now equipped with DSC. Some have GPS in them, some have to be connected to the vessel's gps system. None the less, it's a system that allows vessels, within your location to come to your aid. It even points them to the distressed vessel.
The new AIS transmitters that Dr. Sea listed in his link show many of the AIS transmitters that have DSC and I showed one that also has 121.5 capability and I'm sure it wont be long until they have them combined with 406MHz.
Quote>"If I have an MOB in Australian waters, I'd want to first be relying on Search and Rescue before relying on other vessels who are not sent via AMSA".
Personally, I don't give a damn, who comes to my rescue if I'm sinking or in the water, just come!
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Old 08-02-2016, 14:20   #125
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Re: Personal Locator Beacon as boat's EPIRB?

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Rustic, Your comment that Australia has such a large area is even more reason to rely on AIS or DSC. In my twenty years as a U.S. Coast Guard aircrewmember, I have seen the progression of EPIRBs and I think you already know that I am a big proponent of PLBs, but Dr. Sea is correct when he says that there is a time lapse due to a progression of information gathering before they launch a SAR case. I have probably flown on well over 200 searches for EPIRBs (pre-406 technology) and I would say that about 90% were false alerts. Because you now have to register your ELT (EPIRB, PLB, aircraft ELT), with your name phone number, address, etc., the system helps to prevent a costly launch for false alerts. Believe me when I tell you that the SAR coordination center is going to make that call before they launch. After the call, they will compile as much information as they can, it is put in a computer that will determine your probability of detection, and probability of survival. They will also gather as much information about the area of the distress, such as wind direction, swell direction as they can. So yes there is a time lapse. Then the large area that you mentioned. It could take hours to get on scene.

Because I crewed in a C-130, we could not swoop down and rescue people, so we did the next best thing. We broadcasted from our radios, anyone within sound of this broadcast please respond for assistance of a fellow mariner. When we received replies back, we calculated the closest two vessels and diverted them to the distressed vessel. This is essentially what AIS does without the time lapse of the coordination of the SAR and the flight time to on-scene.
The MASTREP system plots the position of all the AIS registered vessels (both commercial and recreational) and allows SAR resources to contact those vessels that are the closest to the distressed vessel while the SAR coordinators are preparing to launch. This is great technology! Yes, it's new, but lets don't under-mind the benifits.
All VHF marine radios sold today are now equipped with DSC. Some have GPS in them, some have to be connected to the vessel's gps system. None the less, it's a system that allows vessels, within your location to come to your aid. It even points them to the distressed vessel.

The new AIS transmitters that Dr. Sea listed in his link show many of the AIS transmitters that have DSC and I showed one that also has 121.5 capability and I'm sure it wont be long until they have them combined with 406MHz.
Quote>"If I have an MOB in Australian waters, I'd want to first be relying on Search and Rescue before relying on other vessels who are not sent via AMSA".
Personally, I don't give a damn, who comes to my rescue if I'm sinking or in the water, just come!
I don't dispute there will be a 'time laspe'.., what I dispute is whether the time lapse is shortened by AIS and DSC. Also, the time it takes to do all those things, you seem to imply in the US, happens prior to any Search and Rescue being put on alert. Whereas here, authorities are put on alert and the information is then sought after. Obviously if the epirb is going off in a city, a refuge site, then all they do is alert the police who go looking for the thing. But, all epirb alerts at sea are taken seriously and immediately upon them coming in.

Whilst in the US, I understand you don't respond to ALL epirb alerts, my understanding is in Australia, ALL alerts are that cannot be cancelled by the operator are in fact responded to. Regardless that most of them may be false. This is a huge difference between Australia and the US.

This is one of the problems on CF, threads like this are so often contextualised to what happens in the USA. For example, you claim that all VHF sets are now sold with DSC.. NOT SO in Australia. You can still walk into any ship chanderly store and purchase a VHF without DSC. In fact in my local area, DSC sets only started to become more common about three years ago. How many vessels in my area would be equipped with DSC I don't know, but it would be a very fair guess that the majority of recreational vessels have no way of receiving AIS and are not equipped with DSC.

If I have an MOB in Australian Waters, I'd want to first be relying on Search and Rescue before relying on other vessels who are not sent via AMSA.
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Old 08-02-2016, 16:38   #126
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Re: Personal Locator Beacon as boat's EPIRB?

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I don't dispute there will be a 'time laspe'.., what I dispute is whether the time lapse is shortened by AIS and DSC. Also, the time it takes to do all those things, you seem to imply in the US, happens prior to any Search and Rescue being put on alert. Whereas here, authorities are put on alert and the information is then sought after. Obviously if the epirb is going off in a city, a refuge site, then all they do is alert the police who go looking for the thing. But, all epirb alerts at sea are taken seriously and immediately upon them coming in.

Whilst in the US, I understand you don't respond to ALL epirb alerts, my understanding is in Australia, ALL alerts are that cannot be cancelled by the operator are in fact responded to. Regardless that most of them may be false. This is a huge difference between Australia and the US.

This is one of the problems on CF, threads like this are so often contextualised to what happens in the USA. For example, you claim that all VHF sets are now sold with DSC.. NOT SO in Australia. You can still walk into any ship chanderly store and purchase a VHF without DSC. In fact in my local area, DSC sets only started to become more common about three years ago. How many vessels in my area would be equipped with DSC I don't know, but it would be a very fair guess that the majority of recreational vessels have no way of receiving AIS and are not equipped with DSC.

If I have an MOB in Australian Waters, I'd want to first be relying on Search and Rescue before relying on other vessels who are not sent via AMSA.
Rustic, I think we're both on the same page here (can that be?) Ha!
The technology is constantly changing and eventually both the U.S. and Australia will upgrade. The U.S. is not up to par on AIS and DSC either. Before they started selling the VHF radio with GPS/DSC, they had to be wired to the vessel GPS. It was estimated that 95% of these radios were never hooked up to the vessel GPS! This issue was eliminated by adding GPS to the DSC radios. There are many out there that do not realize the benifits nor have the money to pull their radios out and upgrade to the one's with GPS, but over time it will happen because all the radio manufacturers are moving in that direction..
Aircraft owners are having the same issues with the ELTs. Many still have 121.5MHz ELTs and so far now, the U.S. and some countries, do not require the upgrade to 406MHz because of the financial impact on the owners. Personally, I would perfer the technology that is going to get me rescued quicker and I would find the money to do it.
We do pretty much the same with getting a jump on the SAR case by launching ahead of time (before all the details are worked out.) I remember many times taking off and waiting for further instructions while en-route. The difference when it is a EPIRB alert is that there are, were so many false hits, it gets so expensive. If I remember correctly it costs around $20,000 just for a C-130 to take-off and thousands of dollars per hour of flight. The other aircraft I crewed was the HU25 Falcon jet which probably cost close to that. There were days when we launched two to three times on EPIRB alerts that turned out false. I'm not awaree of USCG not launching on EPIRB alerts, but they do check them out before they go.

Off subject, I do have much respect for the Australian CG. We sent a C-130 to Australia back in the 80s to do training with the Aus. C.G.. One of my good friends on the flight said they were blown away by how accurate the Aus. drops were compared to the U.S. That's because the U.S. uses parachutes on ALL their drop gear and Aus. freefalls it. Before I retired, I tried to get USCG to remove the chutes, but because of a trail line we use with the chute, it caused the trail line to spiral over the drop instead of playing out. I have since figured out how to make it work (based on the Aus. system), but the CG apparently isn't interested in my idea.
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Old 09-02-2016, 01:52   #127
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Re: Personal Locator Beacon as boat's EPIRB?

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Originally Posted by Rustic Charm View Post
If I have an MOB in Australian Waters, I'd want to first be relying on Search and Rescue before relying on other vessels who are not sent via AMSA.
I don't get this

If you have a MOB who you lose sight of, wouldn't it be better for them to have an AIS MOB locator so you can locate them quickly and hopefully recover them within minutes, rather than searching in vain and hoping the helicopter arrives soon and locates them?

The crew can always call the coast guard and report the MOB or set off the EPIRB and then use the VHF to tell them to look for a MOB with an AIS

For solo MOB yes a PLB 100%
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Old 09-02-2016, 02:14   #128
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Re: Personal Locator Beacon as boat's EPIRB?

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I don't get this

If you have a MOB who you lose sight of, wouldn't it be better for them to have an AIS MOB locator so you can locate them quickly and hopefully recover them within minutes, rather than searching in vain and hoping the helicopter arrives soon and locates them?

The crew can always call the coast guard and report the MOB or set off the EPIRB and then use the VHF to tell them to look for a MOB with an AIS

For solo MOB yes a PLB 100%
Yes Hoppy, i completely agree, but thats not the context of what i was saying. What i was saying was ' if i had a MOB, and had to rely on either other vessels coming to their rescue or Search and Rescue, then without doubt, i'd rather the MOB has an epirb or PLB with them. Without doubt. Especially for our coast lines.
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Old 10-02-2016, 08:35   #129
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Re: Personal Locator Beacon as boat's EPIRB?

https://www.acrartex.com/products/ca....BlBuZD9l.dpbs




Waiting FCC Approval. ACR said they would contact me when they become available.
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Old 10-02-2016, 09:30   #130
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Re: Personal Locator Beacon as boat's EPIRB?

Several used epirbs on eBay right now starting under $150, of course batteries are or near expiration- I believe new batteries can be bought for under $150
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Old 10-02-2016, 14:14   #131
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Re: Personal Locator Beacon as boat's EPIRB?

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https://www.acrartex.com/products/ca....BlBuZD9l.dpbs




Waiting FCC Approval. ACR said they would contact me when they become available.



Now, that's a good idea
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Old 10-02-2016, 14:28   #132
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Re: Personal Locator Beacon as boat's EPIRB?

[QUOTE=Dockhead;2005681]
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Gentlemen, please be more patient with each other. I don't see any ill intent on either side of this conversation, just some avoidable misunderstandings. Peace to both of you. There are tons of useful information in this thread.
I agree, I joined this group for information needed- not to be tested: I do find the majority to be helpful & understanding.
BTW, I just purchased a used EPIRB on eBay for $102 & a few others remain for sale on there & no matter the cost, I wouldn't sail without both.
Yes, let's be kind to one another.
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Old 10-02-2016, 14:39   #133
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Re: Personal Locator Beacon as boat's EPIRB?

[QUOTE=FXbyLou;2042021]
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I agree, I joined this group for information needed- not to be tested: I do find the majority to be helpful & understanding.
BTW, I just purchased a used EPIRB on eBay for $102 & a few others remain for sale on there & no matter the cost, I wouldn't sail without both.
Yes, let's be kind to one another.
You do realise that was a month ago
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