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Old 24-02-2015, 09:39   #91
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Re: Paint ball with pepper spray?

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Originally Posted by Group9 View Post
Owning a gun doesn't make you a gunfighter, any more than owning a torque wrench makes you a diesel mechanic.

When I worked for a federal agency, we went through months of firearms training and then practiced and qualified four times a year. Twice a year, additionally, we conducted force on force training with simmunition guns (real guns shooting non-lethal rounds). Every few years, we went back to the academy for additional firearms training.

And, even with all of that, we occasionally lost gun fights.

Guns, with proper training, are a useful tool, and probably the ultimate personal defense system. Without it, you might get lucky using one, and you might not.

But, self defense is just too personal an issue, for me to ever suggest what anyone else should do or not do. I'm just making some observations from a career where things sometimes happened.
This is all very important and something I think many gun owners and potential gun owners don't understand. Just buying a gun and keeping it loaded and under your pillow does not as you say "make you a gunfighter".

Unless you are willing to spend the time and money on initial training and refresher training, that gun will likely get you into more trouble than it will get you out of.

Even if properly trained, when that person boards your boat you are liable to be asleep and possibly intoxicated. You wake up and have just a couple of seconds to decide whether to pull the gun and shoot. Make the wrong decision and you'll live with it the rest of your life.

Cruising in a boat is supposed to be fun and I can't see it being fun if you have to stand guard 24/7 with a weapon.
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Old 24-02-2015, 10:33   #92
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Re: Paint ball with pepper spray?

What is it with this standing guard 24/7 with a gun?

I have several fire extinguishers on board to be prepared in case of fire. I don't stand next to them 24/7, "on guard" in case of a fire. I have a lifeboat on my vessel in case it sinks. I don't stand next to the lifeboat 24/7, "on guard" in case I get holed.

As has been mentioned, firearms are a tool, just like any other tool. It is a life/safety device, just like any other life/safety device.

I would urge ANYONE considering whether or not to carry a firearm ANYWHERE, whether it be concealed on your person while you walk down the street, in a wild west gun rack (with the look of real wood) in the cab of your pick-up truck, in your boat or in your home. If you have the slightest hesitation about the possibility of killing another human being, DON'T BUY THE GUN. Even after extensive training, if the hesitation remains you will be killed by the bad guy with a gun. Maybe even yours.

One other point to remember, the person boarding your vessel with bad intent has most likely NEVER taken a single course in gun safety, gun laws, etc. Typically they are bully thugs who may have NEVER been confronted by another person with a gun. And even if they have, it is highly likely that they will just start shooting wildly in your general direction. Probably with a very low level of accuracy especially if they have never had someone point a gun at them. Especially if they have a handgun. If it's a shotgun - you could be in trouble.

Look, life is full of risks. Everyone evaluates those risks and plans accordingly. Especially important if you plan on cruising thruout the world. If possessing a firearm on your vessel is part of your risk management, so be it. Just like any other device or tool on your vessel, it is very important that you know how to use it, when to use it (presumably lawfully) and when not to.

But the whole standing guard 24/7 thing is just silly. I own personal protection firearms which I keep in my home. I am trained on how to use the weapon. I am ready to use it to protect myself and my wife. I do NOT stand guard 24/7 in my home. Why would I do that on my boat?
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Old 24-02-2015, 11:42   #93
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Re: Paint ball with pepper spray?

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Originally Posted by GoingWalkabout View Post
Also please let us know where it is illegal to have a spear gun on a recreational boat.
It is illegal to have either a flare pistol or a speargun on board your boat in the Turks and Caicos Islands.
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Old 24-02-2015, 11:47   #94
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Re: Paint ball with pepper spray?

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Enter "spear gun" into the CF search engine (use the google option lower on the search engine box that appears) if you want to see the myriads of posts on that subject. You also can learn where flare guns are frowned upon by using the same search engine. This subject has been flogged aplenty so have at it.

Perhaps you didn't get my snarky attitude when I posted that owning guns was for idiots. I own several firearms and may decide to carry an appropriate self defense firearm when I go on my cruise. Just remember that while you can carry in many places, you must declare the weapon upon checking into a country. They may insist on holding the weapon during your stay (for more info on that, USE THE SEARCH ENGINE - I will not be giving details). What good, then, is your firearm then? In addition, if your firearm is desirable in any way, you may find that the weapon has mysteriously disappeared when you return to to retrieve it from the authorities. You will have little recourse but leave sans your firearm. You may return to retrieve your weapon only to find the ammunition has disappeared and your weapon appears to have been firedů..many times. Again, you will have little recourse.

You may be able to retain your weapon while in a particular set of islands within a country as long as you have an approved lock box (use the search engine) that must be permanently affixed to your hull. The authorities may well put a seal on the lock box and check same upon checking out. Little recourse exists if the seal is disturbed. If you use the firearm in self defense while in that country you may find that, even tho you were in the right, you may be in deep deep criminal **** (use the search engine).

So, the firearms you bring may well best be used while on the high seas. A pump action shotgun with 00 buckshot is of little value past 50 feet. By the time the bad guys get that close you are in deep deep ****. You may want a firearm that can keep the bad guys at bay. High powered rifles are difficult to aim on a moving vessel. Not impossible - just very difficult. Many folks in the military learn how to do this from helicopters but remember, they are using ammunition they don't have to pay for - and they use A LOT to get proficient and remain proficient. And, don't forget, when you check into a country and they find that very fine semi-automatic military looking high powered rifle with multiple, high capacity banana type magazines, on your vessel it may mysteriously disappear while in their possession, or it may enrage their sensibilities and they simply confiscate the weapon and you could be in some deep **** (use the search engine).

This issue has been flogged and flogged and flogged. Use the search engine before responding and attacking this writer - I learned most of this while reading the multiple, long, streams that are filled with personal attacks and useless, repetitive info posted by folks more interested in scoring political points than providing useful information.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Canibul View Post
It is illegal to have either a flare pistol or a speargun on board your boat in the Turks and Caicos Islands.
I used the proper search for "deep ****" and this thread came up at the top. (it is by date though).
There are over 100 hits. Could keep one busy for a while like I said on page one.
For more, here is a copy.

About 137 results (0.26 seconds)
Paint ball with pepper spray? - Page 6 - Cruisers & Sailing Forums
By the time the bad guys get that close you are in deep deep ****. You may want a firearm that can keep the bad guys at bay. High powered ...
http://www.cruisersforum.com/.../pai...-141631-6.html

What is Your Favorite Quote? - Page 8 - Cruisers ... - Cruisers Forum
Originally Posted by Capt RonB View Post. When you're up to your chin in the deep ****, keep your mouth shut. -- ...
http://www.cruisersforum.com/.../wha...-105878-8.html
Atlantic Delivery - Page 51 - Cruisers & Sailing ... - Cruisers Forum
Or you are in deep **** and you send off a message. Otherwise it's just fodder for a forum. You know Phil and do this so I stand by my not sure.
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...120845-51.html
The Joke Thread - Page 163 - Cruisers & Sailing ... - Cruisers Forum
Consider: You can be **** faced, be **** out of luck, or have **** for brains. ... can find yourself in deep ****, or be happier than a pig in ****.
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...10204-163.html
Keeping Watch at Night ? - Page 16 - Cruisers ... - Cruisers Forum
I've know several boats that got into deep **** because the watch was reading when they should have been watching. f.eks when a gale came ...
http://www.cruisersforum.com/.../kee...109186-16.html
Git Questions [Sitemap] - Cruisers & Sailing Forums - Cruisers Forum
Git - Remote Branches (Git - Remote Branches) git - the simple guide - no deep ****! (git - the simple guide - no deep ****!) ...
Git Questions [Sitemap] - Cruisers & Sailing Forums
What Justifies a "MAYDAY"? - Page 21 - Cruisers ... - Cruisers Forum
Tested by the girlfriend and proved to work, not sure if that also proves her an idiot. Nuff said. Nigel, I'll bet you are in deep **** after that one?
http://www.cruisersforum.com/.../wha...136147-21.html
2012 Round The Island Race (& Gemini capsize) - Page 3 - Cruisers ...
I was at 70 degrees, Beam on, Yes, I **** myself, not literaly, The ... I also had the cock pit knee deep full of water twice, But that was due to huge ...
http://www.cruisersforum.com/.../201...emini-capsize- 84509-3.html
New Bi-Rig Performance Cruiser - Page 4 - Cruisers & Sailing Forums
Chinese saying says "When in deep ****, first trust the anchor, thereafter call the Coastguard!" Yes, it was puzzling that the boat refused to turn ...
http://www.cruisersforum.com/.../new...r-12688-4.html
Best place for bilge pump exit - Page 2 - Cruisers & Sailing Forums
I think I might be in the **** some what here, Hahahaha .... would have been matchsticks, My passenger and I would have been in Deep ****.
http://www.cruisersforum.com/.../bes...-113925-2.html


There is a lot of deep **** out there.
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Old 24-02-2015, 13:05   #95
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Re: Paint ball with pepper spray?

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Originally Posted by crazyoldboatguy View Post
This issue has been flogged and flogged and flogged. Use the search engine before responding and attacking this writer - I learned most of this while reading the multiple, long, streams that are filled with personal attacks and useless, repetitive info posted by folks more interested in scoring political points than providing useful information.
Thank you and of course you are correct. The most important place to gave a gun would be on your boat in port unless your off the African coast. Having your gun locked up on your boat or onshore serves no protective good at all. There could be a case while in International waters but I understand that the high risk is in port while off a ball. If there is a measurable risk say between Islands or going down to Panama ir beyond than I may rethink.

You are also correct in saying the issue has been discussed to death on other postings over time. Thank you for pointing this out to me.

With proper training there are a lot of things you can get away with in using in close quarters on a boat. But to use say a knife in close quarters you had better have good training. Also a good martial arts stick can be very effective. It is true you don't bring a knife to a gun fight but you can gave a knife tucked in the back waist if your pants, move forward towards the gunman and with the right training disarm him, graphics your knife from behind and finish him off.
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Old 24-02-2015, 13:22   #96
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Re: Paint ball with pepper spray?

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Originally Posted by Going Walkabout View Post
Thank you and of course you are correct. The most important place to gave a gun would be on your boat in port unless your off the African coast. Having your gun locked up on your boat or onshore serves no protective good at all. There could be a case while in International waters but I understand that the high risk is in port while off a ball. If there is a measurable risk say between Islands or going down to Panama ir beyond than I may rethink.

You are also correct in saying the issue has been discussed to death on other postings over time. Thank you for pointing this out to me.

With proper training there are a lot of things you can get away with in using in close quarters on a boat. But to use say a knife in close quarters you had better have good training. Also a good martial arts stick can be very effective. It is true you don't bring a knife to a gun fight but you can gave a knife tucked in the back waist if your pants, move forward towards the gunman and with the right training disarm him, graphics your knife from behind and finish him off.
Like this?
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Old 24-02-2015, 13:37   #97
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Re: Paint ball with pepper spray?

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Good stuff. I learned that in karate classes. One needs to practice to get it right and keep it right. I doubt Ms Crazyoldboatguy will agree to being my training partner.
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Old 24-02-2015, 15:24   #98
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Re: Paint ball with pepper spray?

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Originally Posted by Canibul View Post
It is illegal to have either a flare pistol or a speargun on board your boat in the Turks and Caicos Islands.
I'm wondering how many people actually turn over their flare guns when entering the Turks and Caicos Islands.
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Old 24-02-2015, 15:30   #99
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Re: Paint ball with pepper spray?

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What is it with this standing guard 24/7 with a gun? ............................. But the whole standing guard 24/7 thing is just silly. ........... :
Really? Silly? Have you thought this through? No, you haven't.

You are asleep after a few drinks. Two guys burst in the door, guns drawn. How is your arsenal going to help you now?

Think about it. And before you rush to reply to a post, read the whole post, then think about it.
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Old 24-02-2015, 15:32   #100
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Re: Paint ball with pepper spray?

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One other point to remember, the person boarding your vessel with bad intent has most likely NEVER taken a single course in gun safety, gun laws, etc. Typically they are bully thugs who may have NEVER been confronted by another person with a gun. And even if they have, it is highly likely that they will just start shooting wildly in your general direction. Probably with a very low level of accuracy especially if they have never had someone point a gun at them. Especially if they have a handgun. If it's a shotgun - you could be in trouble.
Here my personal problem with that. The person that boards your boat with a firearm, or any other deadly weapon, has had days, weeks or months to decided whether he is ready to use one on someone else. And, to bet your life on the fact it is their first rodeo and they aren't going to be accurate or ready, isn't my idea of a plan. When you start dealing with true predator thugs (not scavengers, but predators, and there is a huge difference in the two, scavengers scare off easily, predators not so much) they routinely attack and often kill, police officers (usually wearing body armor) in gunfights as well as other people on a regular basis.

Scavengers are easy, a loud whistle can win the fight with them, and even losing the fight usually doesn't mean anything bad happens to you. But, Predators are sociopaths and you have to understand what that means-no empathy, no caring, no emotional handicaps when it comes to hurting or killing somebody. A sociopath has that edge, and he isn't going to hesitate a second.

And, I think most people would be shocked at how much combat experience many predators have, most of it never reported or attributed to them. Arrest a lot of people in the inner cities and you will be highly surprised to find out how many of them have scars from gun and knife fights, that they have already survived. I doubt the major thugs in most Caribbean countries are much different.

Again, I'm not giving anyone any advice on what to do, but think of a gunfight as an Atlantic Ocean crossing as far as skill and experience goes. Plus, many people think about how they would react from watching movies. The problem is, gunfights in movies are almost always well lit, and shot from the best angle for the theater goer to understand exactly what is happening. Otherwise, what's the point? In real life, most deadly force encounters happen in low light situations, and chances are, things won't be nearly as clear or easy to discern, (even the fact of whether your assailant is armed or, and with what).

I think just like at home, my better defense plan to invaders, is to keep them out of my living space to start with, and to have methods to discourage them from getting in, once I am alerted to their presence, rather than planning on how I am going to defeat them in mortal combat once they get in. Once they get in the same room with me and my wife, in the tiny confines of our boat, I'm already losing that encounter. I don't want any holes poked in me, even if I do end up poking more holes in the other guy. I don't want to be in a shootout in the cabin of my boat. That's a horrible plan. And, I've had just about as much firearms combat training as it is possible for a person to have.

In the end, it's everybody's own life and their ultimate right to decide how to handle threats to their life. But, the fight you never have is the one only one you know for sure you won't lose.
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Old 24-02-2015, 16:09   #101
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Re: Paint ball with pepper spray?

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Really? Silly? Have you thought this through? No, you haven't.

You are asleep after a few drinks. Two guys burst in the door, guns drawn. How is your arsenal going to help you now?

Think about it. And before you rush to reply to a post, read the whole post, then think about it.
Sigh.

I guess I'm gonna have to hire some guards to keep watch on my entire world 24/7, given your thin skinned response. Let's see, I own a house I don't live in and am selling it. 2 guards per 8 hour shift (it's a big house). Then the apt I live in. 2 doors, 2 guards per shift. Then the shop where I keep the boat I am restoring - 2 guards per 8 hour shift AND the garage where I keep the boat I currently sail, 2 guards per 8 hour shift. I will have to pay a guard to watch my recently retired wife whenever she goes out - do they have a pay per drive service out there?

Seriously - you completely failed to read MY posts. LIFE IS FULL OF RISKS. THERE ARE NO GUARANTEES. Should I make that in a larger font so you can see it better? We make reasonable decisions after reviewing the variables and reducing risk to a manageable level and then we take life as it comes.

Please, tell me what is wrong with that?

And those guys who crash into my crib? I busta cap in all'yall!
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Old 24-02-2015, 20:08   #102
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Re: Paint ball with pepper spray?

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Exactly and Im signing up for exactly this training while I'm in Buenos Aires. As with all training you need to refresh and continue training. This combat training is not like other martial arts. It is designed to go for the soft areas and kill zones immediately. To size up a situation and then make your move in split seconds requires training and regular refresher training. By the way this method is fast to learn and is deadly.
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Old 24-02-2015, 20:54   #103
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Re: Paint ball with pepper spray?

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Exactly and Im signing up for exactly this training while I'm in Buenos Aires. As with all training you need to refresh and continue training. This combat training is not like other martial arts. It is designed to go for the soft areas and kill zones immediately. To size up a situation and then make your move in split seconds requires training and regular refresher training. By the way this method is fast to learn and is deadly.
Yea,
I have had a bit of training in my day. Not much, but a bit.

I wanted to cruise though. I did not want to practice all the cruising safety stuff and add this kind of stuff on top of it all. Cruising is about going around the most expensive way in 3rd class. Enjoying sunsets and meeting other like-minded persons. Not this stuff.
I am staying in my home.
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Old 24-02-2015, 21:16   #104
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Re: Paint ball with pepper spray?

What gets me is all the second guessing and pre-judging that goes on any time the stream is about weapons in general and firearms specifically. I live in the Chicago area. Illinois was the last state in the US that is now licensing folks to carry a concealed firearm. There were predictions of wild west shoot outs and anarchy on the streets from the fear mongers. Forget that the other 49 states have some level of conceal carry laws. When asked on the news comments streams to provide any links to incidents of law abiding carriers of concealed weapons getting into Shootout at the OK Corral, no one replies.

There was the case where an elderly Chicago woman had been repeatedly harassed by some neighbor boys. They had targeted her and finally started throwing stones at her when she was bringing her groceries into her home and kept throwing stones at her home, breaking windows and menacing her.

She got her .22 cal rifle and shot one of the boys (14 y/o) in the shoulder - he survived. The other boy ran away.

Now, when folks judge her and say she should have called the police her response was that in previous incidents her calls had resulted in the police arriving 1/2 hour later. No disrespect to the CPD but the word on the street is that when seconds count, the police are only minutes away.

I use that example because it is instructive. This poor woman lives in a gang ridden neighborhood that sees drive by shootings frequently. The gun she owned was, at the time, illegally possessed by her. No charges were brought against her.

I bet she is on guard 24/7 but she can't just leave - it's her home and she can't afford to move.

Unfortunately, there are those who would have us believe that they have all the answers or know who doesn't. I don't plan on being frightened when I venture out into blue water. I will do the best to gather information about what is happening out there, avoid the places where folks here, and elsewhere, have spoken of and I will enjoy my life - including enjoying taking the risk. If I decide to carry a firearm on board, I will follow the laws of whatever country I visit - it is typical of law abiding Americans who own weapons - they tend to be a law-abiding bunch of folks. If I don't get to my gun in time to fend off the bad guys who bust into my boat in the middle of the night with bad intent, and me not having a chance to reach my weapon, so be it. From the description, they will mean me deadly harm and I won't remember much after they arrive. But the same thing could happen in my home - life is just that way.

I am just in awe of the judgmental posts when anyone talks about considering carrying any weapon on board - propellant driven or just a big stick.

This stream will dwindle and die. When the next one is started, we will see the knowitalls come out of the woodwork with their dire predictions, wild scenarios and holier than tho attitudes. Oh well.
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Old 24-02-2015, 21:26   #105
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Re: Paint ball with pepper spray?

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Yea,
I have had a bit of training in my day. Not much, but a bit.

I wanted to cruise though. I did not want to practice all the cruising safety stuff and add this kind of stuff on top of it all. Cruising is about going around the most expensive way in 3rd class. Enjoying sunsets and meeting other like-minded persons. Not this stuff.
I am staying in my home.
I understand your thoughts Therapy. But if you wish to travel beyond your familiar area of comfort wether it be by land or sea you should be prepared for all eventualities. Its like preparing for the worst and hoping for the best. And as with all preparations for the worst one hopes and prays that the such preparation is never ever needed. Even if you don't want to sail out of your comfortable safe harbor and seek new sights and places to visit if you choose to go to exotic places on land around the world being prepared for the unexpected is a good idea. Most people travel to all sorts of places and have no problem but then some don't.

For me having a spirit of adventure sitting at home is not an option and never has been. Also for me all preparation is part of the adventure.
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