Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 28-02-2011, 13:13   #1
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Florida
Boat: Tartan 37
Posts: 63
Over Age 40 ? Please Consider an AED !

I just made this post on another thread and it was a bit of a drift, as it was someone inquiring about getting hypertension medication while cruising. While I was writing the post ..... it made me realize how important having and AED (automated external defibrillator) onboard really is. They are simple to use, will only "fire" if needed, and really so well designed a ten-year old can use them. You can buy a very good, FDA approved device for around $1295. The best investment I hope you never need.

" .....would highly suggest that you consider having an AED (http://www.americanheart.org/present...tifier=3011859) onboard if you are cruising. Especially for those who are older or at higher risk for heart attack (coronary artery disease, hypertension, PAD, family history, high lipids, etc.). This device can truly be a life saver for a person whose heart stops or who is in some other life threatening cardiac arrythmia. Being trained in CPR, Heimlich, and rescue breathing is essential too. However, a person (or even two people) can only continue CPR for so long. What's more is that if there only two of you aboard ..... someone has to call for help and sail the vessel. Finally, there are dangerous cardiac rhythms that can only be converted by defibrillation, not through CPR. BUT ..... PLEASE LEARN CPR. Thanks for letting me share. "
__________________

__________________
IrishLass is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-02-2011, 13:28   #2
Registered User
 
anjou's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Malvernshire, on the sunny side of the hill.
Boat: 50' steel canal and river cruiser
Posts: 1,905
Re: Over Age 40? Please consider an AED!

Are you selling them?
__________________

__________________
www.amy-artimis.blogspot.com
anjou is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-02-2011, 13:30   #3
Registered User
 
Mark1977's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Halifax, N.S Canada
Boat: Tanzer 26, Walk22
Posts: 930
Re: Over Age 40? Please consider an AED!

Great something else i'm gonna need.......lol
__________________
Mark1977 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-02-2011, 13:35   #4
Registered User
 
psneeld's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Avalon, NJ
Boat: Albin 40 double cabin Trawler
Posts: 1,833
Re: Over Age 40? Please consider an AED!

Quote:
Originally Posted by IrishLass View Post
I just made this post on another thread and it was a bit of a drift, as it was someone inquiring about getting hypertension medication while cruising. While I was writing the post ..... it made me realize how important having and AED (automated external defibrillator) onboard really is. They are simple to use, will only "fire" if needed, and really so well designed a ten-year old can use them. You can buy a very good, FDA approved device for around $1295. The best investment I hope you never need.

" .....would highly suggest that you consider having an AED (http://www.americanheart.org/present...tifier=3011859) onboard if you are cruising. Especially for those who are older or at higher risk for heart attack (coronary artery disease, hypertension, PAD, family history, high lipids, etc.). This device can truly be a life saver for a person whose heart stops or who is in some other life threatening cardiac arrythmia. Being trained in CPR, Heimlich, and rescue breathing is essential too. However, a person (or even two people) can only continue CPR for so long. What's more is that if there only two of you aboard ..... someone has to call for help and sail the vessel. Finally, there are dangerous cardiac rhythms that can only be converted by defibrillation, not through CPR. BUT ..... PLEASE LEARN CPR. Thanks for letting me share. "
CPR when on a boat is going to be effectine in less than 5% of the cases. AED are true lifesavers...they will actually correct the wrong. Ever wonder why they keep changing CPR procedures? Cause it don't really work past a few minutes. On a boat...you are in the wilderness even when you are only a few feet from a dock. If you were on land...a medic unit in most places in the US might get there in time...but on the water...so many juridictional issues get crunched before dispatch is made...you are dead or a veggie before good medical help arrives...seen it a hundred or more times while a recure coast guard guy or a on the water pro captain that responds to all boating incidents in my busy NJ shore area of operations.
__________________
psneeld is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-02-2011, 13:35   #5
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Florida
Boat: Tartan 37
Posts: 63
Re: Over Age 40? Please consider an AED!

Something else ..... I know ..... B-O-A-T. But, I do hope this is money that we spend and never use!

To Anjou .... no, I am not selling them. There are many great websites where you can purchase them.
__________________
IrishLass is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-02-2011, 13:55   #6
Registered User
 
mario f's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: caribbean
Boat: ketch, 51'
Posts: 153
Images: 8
Re: Over Age 40? Please consider an AED!

Please consider what you are suggesting.

In my many years as a ER provider I have not seen not heard of manual or AED having worked the magic you suggest here. Also beware not all arrythmias that benefit from shock are recognized by the AED.

And with all due respect and not wanting to insult anyone nor start an argument...

my experience is that lack of knowledge and proper training make these devices dangerous for situations in cruising boats such as the general population here.


Zap, Zap... then what they get up hug you and thank you???
That was Squad 51 remember, with battery jumper cables.....

The Zap just buys you time for ems to respond and continue the process...
__________________
"It was the Law of the Sea, they said. Civilization ends at the waterline. Beyond that, we all enter the food chain, and not always right at the top.
Hunter S. Thompson
mario f is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-02-2011, 14:08   #7
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,649
Images: 3
Re: Over Age 40? Please consider an AED!

There is anothe rthread on this, but having spoken to two sailing doctors of mine when I was crossing the pond, AED's are useful in provideing the "golden hour".but rescue at sea can take days, I dont beleive its a useful addition.

dave
__________________
Check out my new blog on smart boat technology, networking and gadgets for the connected sailor! - http://smartboats.tumblr.com
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-02-2011, 14:22   #8
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Florida
Boat: Tartan 37
Posts: 63
Re: Over Age 40? Please consider an AED!

Mario ..... no, I agree no arguments here. We are all here for the good of all of us. This was my response to you in the other link regarding AED's:

"I agree with Mario and Atoll on the medical supplies, first aid kit, and trauma supplies. Mario, I still have to stand on my previous recommendation for AED's onboard. You don't always know how close you are to a cruise ship, cargo ship, military vessel, or the USCG. If you can defibrilate the "patient" and administer aspirin and other medications that the may already be prescibed by the "patient's" practitioner you have a considerable rate of viability."

Agreed .... nothing is like having a cardiologist or an ACLS trained ERNP at hand with a crash cart. However, this is an important question for people who have made the decision to live and make the very best of an adventurous life. Many or them circumnavigating just as my in-laws did for more than 10 years.

What are you suggesting as an alternative to an AED in this, way too common, scenario: a couple are sailing together and one partner loses consciousness and appears to have had a heart attack (MI). What should the CPR trained, lay partner do? Of course, sometimes these are personal decisions that have been decided prior to these crisis moments. And I would suggest that each couple make an emergency plan on how they want to deal with these issues prior to such a time. Knowing how sailors plan for the unexpected expected .... I am sure I could have gone without saying that

A friendly discussion .... maybe other healthcare professional will weigh in on this too.
__________________
IrishLass is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-02-2011, 14:37   #9
Moderator
 
Pete7's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Solent, England
Boat: Moody 31
Posts: 8,570
Images: 14
Re: Over Age 40? Please consider an AED!

Long post, bear with me.

A decade ago I ran a boat handling course for the diving club. Saturday lunchtime was spent learning how to load the dive boat rib up with kit because in the past we always forgot something, so now use lists.

After lunch we towed the rib down to the local slip and launched for the practical part of the course. Sarah one of the students asked if I needed a hand to move the boat across the marina so jumped in as well as one other instructor.

As we moved around the large marina we saw a 24ft yacht just drifting between the pontoons. The old man in the cockpit looked grey and was whispering something. We moved quickly alongside to find he really was in trouble. We rammed the yacht against an empty dock and tied up the two boats, before jumping on the yacht.

Sarah who happened to be an intensive care nurse instructor called for the oxygen and first aid kit and slapped the old man on 100% O2 straight away. Next we called for an ambulance whilst Sarah started going through triage. The ambulance turned up in 8 minutes but sadly crewed by two young girls who lacked a sense of urgency.

Sarah called for the ambulance oxygen set but the speed the girls were walking down the pontoon meant I ran up and grabbed it off them before running back down the pontoon. Sarah assembled the regulator on the cylinder and turned it on only to find the cylinder was empty. She reverted back to the dive club oxygen kit.

Sarah then called for a defib. A dash to the ambulance and back again saw Sarah open up the kit and bag of patches etc before checking we were all clear and thank god she did. the old mans left hand was holding the steel guardwires as was everyone else on the other side of the yacht. A quick barked order did the trick and we stood clear. However, there wasn't time to do anything about any fuel or gas on the boat.

After the third attempt his heart started. Just then his wife came walking down the pontoon. During a heart attack excess blood pressure can cause a nose bleed. So blood all over the white GRP yacht, the mans shirt torn open and sticky patches for the defib lying about. Finally the old man had an oxygen mask on. Not the sight you would want a wife to see without being forewarned. The marina bosun recognised the wife so we both stood shoulder to shoulder to block her view whilst we explained what had happened in gentle terms and what we were doing for him.

After half an hour Sarah was happy the ambulance crew could take him to A&E. She went to see him a couple of days later and he was making a good recovery. On the anniversary of the incident she receives a bouquet of flowers each year from the couple. Finally as the course organiser I had to raise an incident report with the British Sub Aqua Club. Later that year we were invited to the Diving Officers Conference to receive an award for the actions of the club members on the course.

The old man was lucky. We were the only boat moving around the marina at the time. We had oxygen and a first kit on board. Finally Sarah happened to be on board, she could so easily have been stuck on the other side of the water and she was ideally qualified.

We discussed defibs for some time afterwards, but decided even though we had clearly seen how effective they are, in an open dive boat covered in salt water and carrying large quantities of petrol there was too much of a risk. This was also based on the younger age of the club members plus all have a medical for diving so reasonably fit. Instead we settled to continue to carry oxygen because we were diving up to an hour from land.

So would I carry one on a yacht? possibly yes if going offshore along with oxygen or certainly a good nitrox mixed gas from a diving background.

Pete
__________________
Pete7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-02-2011, 14:41   #10
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,649
Images: 3
Re: Over Age 40? Please consider an AED!

Again, the key point is that medical help was at hand, at sea whats the point of a AED

dave
__________________
Check out my new blog on smart boat technology, networking and gadgets for the connected sailor! - http://smartboats.tumblr.com
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-02-2011, 14:46   #11
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Florida
Boat: Tartan 37
Posts: 63
Re: Over Age 40? Please consider an AED!

Pete:

Thank you for sharing such an emotional and touching story. You and Sarah have much to be proud of. I think given the age and general health of your students and the environment onboard your dive boats you a judicious decision.

Again ... thank you for sharing!
__________________
IrishLass is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-02-2011, 14:53   #12
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Florida
Boat: Tartan 37
Posts: 63
Re: Over Age 40? Please consider an AED!

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Again, the key point is that medical help was at hand, at sea whats the point of a AED

dave

It would be VERY helpful if those who indicate that an AED has no use onboard (at sea) would suggest an alternative plan of action. And while medical follow-up is required, an AED is designed to be used by a lay (non-medical) person.

For those who have an AED onboard, FYI:

Cardiac Care Critique
__________________
IrishLass is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-02-2011, 15:10   #13
Registered User
 
capn_billl's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Houston,Tx
Boat: Maxum 37'
Posts: 1,587
Re: Over Age 40? Please consider an AED!

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Again, the key point is that medical help was at hand, at sea whats the point of a AED

dave
AED's are automatic, thats the point. I haven't bought one, because I have made the decision that there is a long list of things more likely to take my life at this point in my health. And I haven't purchased all of those yet.

But if you are a professional that is required to take first aid and CPR anyway, the training to use one is only another hour of instruction. If you have an elderly person aboard or likely to encounter one. the AED may very likely save a life, add oxygen and an extended medical supplies kit, and radio contact with a Doctor, and the odds go way up. And unless you are mid ocean a medivac chopper may very well be close enough to get them into permanent care.
They put them on airplanes now even though the chances of a Doctor onboard are slim, and it will again take hours to get someone to a hospital. Why? because they are likely to encounter an elderly person, or heart patient, the flight attendants are already required to take first aid and CPR, oxygen bottles are on board anyway, and expert medical help is only a radio call away.

So; it is something to consider even though most people will be like me and put it somewhere not on the top of the list. If you are a charter Captain, work at a marina, or are cruising with your parents, or have a medical background. They are coming down in price, and will at some point reach the price where the odds of saving someones life is greater than the money you would save by not having one.
__________________
capn_billl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-02-2011, 15:27   #14
Registered User
 
psneeld's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Avalon, NJ
Boat: Albin 40 double cabin Trawler
Posts: 1,833
Re: Over Age 40? Please consider an AED!

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Again, the key point is that medical help was at hand, at sea whats the point of a AED

dave
Probably the same as carrying an EPIRB when cruising to Antartica. Surviving till someone arrives is tricky and a long shot when you are possibly thousands of miles from a rescue resource...but every little bit of survival gear helps....yes you can debate costs..but if you can afford it...it could save a life.
__________________
psneeld is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-02-2011, 15:32   #15
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Seattle
Boat: Cal 40
Posts: 2,401
Images: 7
Re: Over Age 40? Please consider an AED!

This has come up before. What I got out of that thread from the doctors that posted was if you have the money and it makes you more comfortable then buy one, there is a chance to save a life. Chances are very poor that it will do any good unless you are near a hospital.

Automated External Defibrillator ?


As far as the chance of help being nearby, such as ships, I'd guess that military ships have more advanced medical help, but what I've read of regular freight carriers, there might be someone with (advanced?) first aid training not the type of training needed, and I doubt they carry the heart drugs needed.

From:
Freighter Cruises
Are in good general health - since most freighters do not have a medical staff.

I think somewhere on this forum is a discussion of the lack of medical help even in places like the Caribbean except for at a few major cities.

John
__________________

__________________
cal40john is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
At What Age Can They Swim? Clairek Families, Kids and Pets Afloat 20 14-08-2017 03:05
In this Day and Age . . . TaoJones Cruising News & Events 4 13-05-2010 10:05
Greetings from the Stone Age StoneAge Meets & Greets 4 05-01-2009 07:22



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 23:57.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.