Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 02-01-2009, 08:34   #16
Registered User
 
RBEmerson's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: SE PA
Boat: Baba 35 - One With The Wind
Posts: 392
I wouldn't bet on the USCG blessing "discarding a round down the tube" at this point. The best bet really is to call (landline suggested) the Coasties for the nearest safe disposal point. In this stupid day and age where 16 blocks of Aspen, CO is closed down New Years Eve by a nutjob with a couple of bombs, even calling LEO with "I have these flares I'd like to dispose of" could be exciting. Or not. I'd start with the Coasties.

FWIW, I did unload some old flares "down the tube" during the general fireworks mayhem at midnight a couple of years ago. It helped that I was about 50 miles from the ocean. Anyway, lessons learned from firing 12 ga. flares:
  1. The flare impact point had better be wet
  2. Believe it or not, the best angle to fire at is close to straight up
  3. They don't go as high as you'd think
  4. They're not as bright as you think
  5. All rounds fired properly despite being up to 10 years old
The first round was fired at about 60 deg. elevation and lofted nicely over into the yard of the guy across the street. And we have a 150' drive. The good news is it had been raining and the grass was soaking wet. The bad news is that didn't put the flare out - but at least the grass didn't catch fire.

Firing close to straight up kept the flares landing on our side of the road but none of them was out by the time they hit. A red flare at night is brighter than no flare, but this was hardly a case of putting up a star shell.

I fired six rounds and all of them went off without a surprise. Afterward, I trashed the launcher (no idea how healthy it was after six rounds down the barrel but the hammer lock was iffy). Most reports of firing old flares say they go off as expected unless they're in bad shape (in which case, I'd be very reluctant to use them, period).

Would I do this on the water? Not even if we were near a barge shooting fireworks.
__________________

__________________
S/V One With The Wind
'85 Baba 35
"You and I may agree, but we could both be wrong."
RBEmerson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2009, 09:20   #17
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: St. Augustine, Fl
Boat: Allied Princess, 36-Scallywag
Posts: 693
Images: 8
Thanks for posting the question about flare disposal. I have old flares aboard and I just never gave disposal a thought. I would not trust the Coast Guard. An enlisted man probably answers the phone and if nobody is around gives an answer. The person is probably trained on what to say for missing boaters.

John
__________________

__________________
scallywag is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2009, 10:12   #18
Registered User
 
RBEmerson's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: SE PA
Boat: Baba 35 - One With The Wind
Posts: 392
I think you're doing the Coast Guard a big disservice here. If you don't want their answers, don't call.
__________________
S/V One With The Wind
'85 Baba 35
"You and I may agree, but we could both be wrong."
RBEmerson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2009, 10:28   #19
Moderator Emeritus
 
GordMay's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Thunder Bay, Ontario - 48-29N x 89-20W
Boat: (Cruiser Living On Dirt)
Posts: 31,580
Images: 240
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptForce View Post
Gord May, I certainly don't question your posted response; however, due to whatever lax authority or regional differences in policy the event I described did occur in the mid-1990's on the St. Johns River south of Jacksonville Florida with approval of the local Coast Guard. 'take care and joy, Aythya crew
I meant no disrespect of you, nor do I doubt the truth of what you say.

As others have noted, I would place NO CREDENCE in the ignorant advice, received from a low-ranking Coastie, over the phone. He was just plain WRONG.

CFR TITLE 33 Part 175, Subpart C - Visual Distress Signals:
At:

http://www.ct.gov/dep/lib/dep/boatin..._subpart_c.pdf

Sec. 175.140 Prohibited use.
The Regulation States: "No person in-a boat shall display a visual distress signal on water to which this subpart applies under any circumstances except a situation where assistance is needed because of immediate or potential danger to the persons aboard."


The State of Florida, and other jurisdictions, have a flare disposal programme:
Goto: http://www.swa.org/pdf/flare_brochure.pdf

Quote:
Originally Posted by RBEmerson View Post
I think you're doing the Coast Guard a big disservice here. If you don't want their answers, don't call.
In this case, it was the particular Coast Guard personnel that did a sailor and the public an unintentional, but potentially serious (legally & physically) disservice.
If you don't know - don't say.
__________________
Gord May
"If you didn't have the time or money to do it right in the first place, when will you get the time/$ to fix it?"



GordMay is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2009, 10:43   #20
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: St. Augustine, Fl
Boat: Allied Princess, 36-Scallywag
Posts: 693
Images: 8
RBEmerson,
I was just trying to point out that the person answering the question of flare disposal might not know the correct answer. I do not know everything and I let people know that fact. I respect Gord's knowledge. A person on the phone is an unknown. Try to explain that to the police or people in power. An incorrect response still puts you in the wrong!
John
__________________
scallywag is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2009, 11:03   #21
Back to the game

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Medellin, Colombia
Boat: Pearson Countess 44 wannabe
Posts: 545
I always get impressed with the amount of information Gord brings here...I may be able to do the same in 30 years...

Thanks
__________________
JC
Soft Air is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2009, 11:07   #22
Registered User
 
Ziggy's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: U.S., Northeast
Boat: Contessa 32
Posts: 1,421
Images: 2
Quote:
Originally Posted by GordMay View Post
I
Sec. 175.140 Prohibited use.
The Regulation States: "No person in-a boat shall display a visual distress signal on water to which this subpart applies under any circumstances except a situation where assistance is needed because of immediate or potential danger to the persons aboard."
The rule seems to be applicable only to people in boats. Says nothing about people on shore or dogs in boats (just nit-picking!)
__________________
Ziggy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2009, 11:17   #23
Moderator Emeritus
 
GordMay's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Thunder Bay, Ontario - 48-29N x 89-20W
Boat: (Cruiser Living On Dirt)
Posts: 31,580
Images: 240
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
The rule seems to be applicable only to people in boats. Says nothing about people on shore or dogs in boats (just nit-picking!)
I can see it in my mind's eye.

"But officer; it was my dog what done it."


If Ziggy's not a lawyer, he certainly has the potential.

__________________
Gord May
"If you didn't have the time or money to do it right in the first place, when will you get the time/$ to fix it?"



GordMay is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2009, 12:06   #24
Moderator Emeritus
 
Pblais's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Hayes, VA
Boat: Gozzard 36
Posts: 8,700
Images: 15
Send a message via Skype™ to Pblais
No official that expects to keep their job is going to admit they gave you permission to do something that was illegal, you got caught, and had undesirable consequences.

I suppose if you were going to set off flares for practice having a note from your mom might not be a bad idea. At least a note from your mom would be in writing.
__________________
Paul Blais
s/v Bright Eyes Gozzard 36
37 15.7 N 76 28.9 W
Pblais is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2009, 12:34   #25
Senior Cruiser
 
sandy daugherty's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2008
Location: near Annapolis
Boat: PDQ 36 & Atlantic 42
Posts: 1,178
My sailing group obtained an exemption to use expired flares for training purposes once a year. It entailed a posting in Notice to Mariners, and letters to residents within eyeshot of the event. We notified local law enforcement and fire departments. The exercise is organized with trainers, fire extinguishers, buckets full of sand for duds, etc. and is very well received by new members and experienced boaters alike, many of whom had never used a flare or even read the instructions. The event included using fire extinguishers, heaving lines, and igniting smokes. The used flares are obtained from the boat owners in the 900 member group, in exchange for new flares, purchased at a special discount from a national retailer.

HOWEVER:

One of the residents (who did receive the letter but didn't "understand" it) called the fire department, manned by volunteers on weekends who were never notified. Chucklehead fire department rolled out, sirens blazing, and got stuck in the sand trying to get to the site, and were huffily disappointed when wiser heads showed them the permits, notifications, flyers, etc. Calls to the Coast Guard confirmed the exemption, volunteer fire department got to demonstrate some neat toys, everyone lived happily everafter, except local resident, hereinafter referred to as the self appointed Blue-haired chaff-voter in charge of enforcing morals and ethics on the Upper Chesapeake. As expected, some questions remain, and there have been suggestions of alien abduction and sub-rosa political agendae.
__________________
sandy daugherty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2009, 12:56   #26
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Anchorage, Alaska
Boat: Newport 28
Posts: 136
Legal or otherwise

Quote:
Originally Posted by GordMay View Post
Sec. 175.140 Prohibited use.
The Regulation States: "No person in-a boat shall display a visual distress signal on water to which this subpart applies under any circumstances except a situation where assistance is needed because of immediate or potential danger to the persons aboard."
Apparently it is possible to get a permit to legally shoot expired flares onshore. A private company here in Anchorage provides survival training for people flying to remote locations. I attended a couple of years back. The class was held on BLM administered land, next to a BLM operated airstrip. As part of the class we all gathered on the edge of the airstrip and the instructor demonstrated a variety of pyrotechnic signals, ranging from little skyblazers to a really big orange smoke bomb. This company holds these classes several times a year, with the blessing (I presume) of the BLM, and Anchorage Police and Fire Departments.

Unfortunately, only the instructors got to actually play with the stuff , while the rest of us could only watch. Also the class was quite expensive and I was only able to attend because my employer paid for it. As I noted in a previous post, I think there is great value in actually having hands on experience with these devices. If one can find a way to do that legally that's great. If you choose to to stretch or break the law (as I did), that's your own choice. Just don't cause a false alarm rescue to be launched, and make sure you do it in a way that doesn't start a fire or otherwise endanger others!

That's my story, and I'm stick'n to it!
__________________
Alaska: We're here, because we're not all there!
AK_sailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2009, 13:06   #27
Registered User
 
RBEmerson's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: SE PA
Boat: Baba 35 - One With The Wind
Posts: 392
A) It's pretty clear that popping red flares on or near the water is something to be undertaken only in an emergency.

B) My point re: calling the Coast Guard was to find an approved disposal means or location, not to get permission to shoot stuff off. (See A) above)

C) Believe it or not, there are things such as SOP books around so that Coasties answering the phones (or radios) actually do have a common source of information.

Past that, as I said, if you don't like the Coasties' answer, don't ask the Coasties the question. It's just that easy. I really do wonder how many people commenting here might sing a different tune if a white boat with a red bow stripe was all that stood between them and a long swim home...
__________________
S/V One With The Wind
'85 Baba 35
"You and I may agree, but we could both be wrong."
RBEmerson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2009, 13:10   #28
Registered User
 
Stillraining's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Puget Sound
Boat: Irwin 41 CC Ketch
Posts: 2,876
We as US citizens all get a permit for free at least twice per year on land ..It called 4th of July and new years...unless your town has an ordinance against it...There are now so many pyrotechinics sold by our local Indian tribes here in Washington that out power any civilian distress flairs availibal it would literally go unnoticed and considered a dud by local authorities.
Im having a hard time understanding the depth of concern over this matter...I suspect and I say this with all the humbleness I can possibly muster over a key board that thoes with this concern about disposal of these things have never owned a firearm or shot one.

All my girls have fired a 12 gauge flair pistol the youngest at 11...just as important as knowing how to manualy inflate their vest IMHO.

Cheers
__________________
"Go simple, go large!".

Relationships are everything to me...everything else in life is just a tool to enhance them.
Stillraining is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2009, 13:18   #29
Registered User
 
sabray's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Wash DC
Boat: PETERSON 44
Posts: 3,169
Last night I became concerned that I had expired flares in storage. I set about loading them in the trunk of my car. Alas I had a thought maybe I should call ahead to confirm that I could deliver them. Here in the nations capitol we have a one call number for questions. I told the young lady who answered the phone That the trunk of my car was now loaded with old incendiary devices and that I planned to.... she interrupted could you confirm your address please and then continued with a long drawn out series of what seemed liked off topic questions.
Soon my neighborhood was cordoned off the bomb squad was on scene and my car subject to destructive testing. After a long night of interrogation I am now home my car is a charred out remnant. I feel so much safer that I don't have the old flares to worry about.
Now Im' thinking that I probably won't use my up to date flares. I can't afford rescue insurance and probably couldn't stand the scorn and speculation the internet public would cast upon me for allowing myself to have gotten into such a predicament that would require there use. So Iam setting about loading the basket of my bicycle with the newer flares but wait maybe I should call ahead first.

Happy new year
__________________
sabray is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2009, 13:26   #30
Moderator Emeritus
 
GordMay's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Thunder Bay, Ontario - 48-29N x 89-20W
Boat: (Cruiser Living On Dirt)
Posts: 31,580
Images: 240
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stillraining View Post
We as US citizens all get a permit for free at least twice per year on land ..It called 4th of July and new years...unless your town has an ordinance against it...
Many of us can get away with many offences many times.
For those who wish to know what the law says, you could start by reviewing your State laws, and Municipal ordinances; or you could just accept the freely offered advice of "internet experts" like I & others.

The Directory of State Fireworks Laws (American Pyrotechnics Association) is at:
Directory of State Laws
__________________

__________________
Gord May
"If you didn't have the time or money to do it right in the first place, when will you get the time/$ to fix it?"



GordMay is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Ever Shot a Flare Gun at Something? sww914 Health, Safety & Related Gear 75 20-07-2009 08:48
Flare Gun, flares and smoke flare on a plane? sgtPluck Health, Safety & Related Gear 3 27-08-2008 18:16
Flare Regulations spaceballs Monohull Sailboats 1 15-04-2008 12:17
FLARE RECALL ~ Pains Wessex GordMay Health, Safety & Related Gear 0 22-12-2006 04:40
Flag Disposal Knottygirlz Rules of the Road, Regulations & Red Tape 5 14-08-2006 06:55



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:03.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.