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Old 28-11-2007, 19:28   #1
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Post Now the whole story is starting to come to light

in the loss of Laura Gainey off the Picton Castle.

CANOE -- SLAM! Sports - Hockey NHL - Montreal - Chilling details emerge
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Old 29-11-2007, 05:43   #2
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Post Bob Gainey slams report from Cook Islands

on the account of the loss of his daughter from the Picton Castle.

CTV.ca | Bob Gainey slams report into his daughter's death
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Old 29-11-2007, 07:04   #3
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Vogelsgesang later said he couldn't understand why Gainey would continue doing ship checks after she was told to get some sleep.
"She'd asked for the rest and she got it." He said it remains unclear how long she went without rest during the storm, and he stressed it is difficult to sleep in rough weather and crew often volunteer to work during their off hours.
I can believe that. Reading through that whole story, I can really identify with what would have been going on in her mind. When you're that sleep deprived, your judgement is absolute garbage. You can't think clearly, you can't evaluate risks to yourself or your crew, and you need to be taken off watch standing duties.

All that being said, if every sailor that should have been taken off watch was taken off watch, we would still probably be exploring the coast line in canoes.

My dad used to joke that the only difference between bravery and foolishness is if the plan worked. Doing some crazy, like not sleeping for 20 hours in a storm and keeping doing your watch on deck. If you make it through the storm, people will think that you're a brave sailor. Go overboard, and everyone shakes their head and starts talking about all the mistakes you made.
That's some pretty rough conditions, and it doesn't take much of that to push a crew to a breaking point, even if you have an amazing crew.
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Old 29-11-2007, 07:15   #4
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Whatever her state of mind was....whatever her work ethic etc etc...in my mind it is CRIMINALLY negligent of the Captain to not REQUIRE at the very LEAST lifejackets to be worn and better yet harnesses to be worn when a storm is bad enough to sweep people (including the Captain!!!!!!!) off their feet while on deck....sheer stupidity and a girl loses her life for it....unbelievable....
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Old 29-11-2007, 21:44   #5
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Ditto what Rangiroo said.

People will lose their lives at sea occasionally. That looks like a tough ship to crew on. However, lifelines and jackets seem like a no brainer.
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Old 29-11-2007, 21:51   #6
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Wearing lifejackets is not much different than wearing seatbelts...it's pretty much a no brainer. When you need them you will be glad you had them on...and it's too late once you figure out you need them now.
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Old 30-11-2007, 00:30   #7
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Was she a passsenger?

When a couple of our local cruise ships had a few problems it became the responsibility of our local police.

I am assuming that the loss of Laura Gainey overboard was treated as a crew matter.

However if she paid for her passage, as is possible, legally she may have been a passenger and the local police at the first port of call of the Picton Castle after the incident may be responsible.
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Old 30-11-2007, 06:44   #8
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it's about the hockey

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boracay View Post
When a couple of our local cruise ships had a few problems it became the responsibility of our local police.

I am assuming that the loss of Laura Gainey overboard was treated as a crew matter.

However if she paid for her passage, as is possible, legally she may have been a passenger and the local police at the first port of call of the Picton Castle after the incident may be responsible.
She was described as being senior crew when this event happened. IIRC she had been with the ship for at least part of a circumnavigation. She knew the risks and was there willingly.

You have to understand, this is Canada, hockey rabid Canada, and Bob Gainey is a hockey legend. Most Canadians are hockey fanatics, so whatever he says is going to get major legs in the press. If this was just Joe Schmuck's kid it would have hardly made any news anywhere, perhaps page 55 of the Toronto Sun for a day. When did the sports page ever report on the investigation into a person getting washed off a ship? That should tell you all you need to know about what is really driving the noise on this, it's just the press selling product through whatever means it can.

I'm not trying to trivialize this or condone a whitewash job if in fact one took place. It was a very sad, very tragic incident and I can understand how any parent would be devastated. Hopefully, some good will come out of the investigations into it, but the reality is people have lost their lives at sea since the dawn of time and they will till the end of time.
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Old 30-11-2007, 07:23   #9
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The bottom line is that the Captain screwed up in not preparing his ship, his student crew, his galley and himself, before the onset of heavy weather.

I have been the Master of a similar tall ship and with an approaching storm, you lash down everything, work only a lower steadying sail and run the engine.

Make lots of food before the cook disappears and most importantly post a sign at the door “No one on Deck without permission from the Master”. Especially with novices!

The lack of lifelines, harnesses and safety procedures showed that the Captain was mentally adrift before and after the storm arrived.

This is probably the hardest hit Bob Gainey took, on or off the ice.
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Old 30-11-2007, 07:28   #10
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<<it's just the press selling product through whatever means it can.>>


Well, I just have to jump in as a) a hockey-mad Canadian, b) a journalist and c) a sailor.

I get really tired of people making knee-jerk statements equivalent to the one above.

Is it your position that this isn't a story that needs to be told? Or that because it's Bob Gainey's daughter we should relegate it to page 55? Or what?

It is true that the reason the story makes news in Canada and not, say, Zambia is that Bob Gainey was a great hockey player and is well-known. In Canada. So what? Every day news editors have thousands of possible stories, all equally heart-rending. They choose the ones that will interest their audience. Perhaps this is ill-advised? Should they choose the ones that no one cares about?

Consider the Zambian family whose daughter is eaten by a lion (and I am being tongue in cheek here -- don't know of any such case or even if they have lions in Zambia). Does it make page one in Toronto? No. In Kinshasa? Yes.

It may surprise you to know that on a day-to-day basis news editors rarely if ever consider the effect of a story on sales. What they do consider is whether it will interest or be of use to their readers or audiences.

One of the reasons for that is that sales are almost never affected -- positively or negatively -- by any given article. (Or at least not much).

On the other hand, one of the things that does occasionally come out the thousands of news stories printed or broadcast every week is change in policy or practice. I quote again: <<Hopefully, some good will come out of the investigations into it.>>

Would there have been anything more than a cursory investigation by the Cook Islands authorities without the interest of the Canadian media? I think not.

End of rant.

For those who haven't seen the latest TV probe, it looks as if the Picton Castle completely ignored the existence of lifejackets and safety lines, sending crew aloft in relatively heavy seas (although not a gale, as the presenter repeatedly called it) without them and allowing them work on deck in bare feet, again without safety gear, even though the deck very often swept by waves. Very clear footage.

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Old 30-11-2007, 08:00   #11
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I'm not trying to trivialize this or condone a whitewash job if in fact one took place. It was a very sad, very tragic incident and I can understand how any parent would be devastated. Hopefully, some good will come out of the investigations into it, but the reality is people have lost their lives at sea since the dawn of time and they will till the end of time.

Connemara, it's kind of the pot calling the kettle black for you to call my post a "knee-jerk". There's nothing knee jerk about what I said, I expressed an opinion I have held for a long time about what gets covered and what doesn't and why. We both know that incidents like this happen and are NEVER reported widely in the press simply because there's nothing of interest to the average person. The average person doesn't give a crap about someone getting washed off a ship in the atlantic. Some people fight like hell for years to get injustice brought to the attention of the world and it goes unnoticed. Where in what I said did I say this wasn't worthy of the attention it is getting?

Isn't it kind of logical that if something is "of interest" to a wider slice of the population then it's going to sell more? So newspaper editors aren't aware of that?

The tragedy is that it takes something happening to someone of note before the mainstream press gives it the attention it deserves. Perhaps the media should be so diligent in chasing down and reporting the whitewashes that happen every day instead of just parroting the "happy talk" du jour spewed from some agency with an agenda. Whatever happened to investigative journalism anyway? Woodward and Bernstein, where are you now?

Didja watch the show that Andrew Younghusband did on the Picton Castle a few years back? He did a circumnavigation on board and made it into a very engrossing TV show that ran in about 20 one hour segments. Gave a great insight into the ship and how it was run.

I knew that would bring the hockey zealots up for air. Guess I tweaked your personal nose twice, hockey nut and journalist? My bad. My opinion. See ya on the lake!
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Old 30-11-2007, 08:36   #12
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Getting off-topic, but one quick response.

<< Isn't it kind of logical that if something is "of interest" to a wider slice of the population then it's going to sell more?>>

Logic is often a bad guide. In point of fact, most people subscribe to their newspapers and have fixed TV/radio habits. Splashing a story on the front page or leading the news with it has almost no effect on sales or audience, simply because people have already made their choices.

And simply because you've held an opinion for a long time doesn't mean it isn't knee-jerk. I'd argue exactly the opposite. Opinions you don't have to think about are by definition knee-jerk.

I have lots of knee-jerk opinions, including that people who say things like "they're only doing it to sell newspapers" don't know what they're talking about. I've held that view for a long time, and I'm prepared to trot it out without whole lot of new thought.

But it is based on some 35 years of experience as a newspaperman, both as an editor and reporter, so I like to think it has some sort of credibility.

Could be wrong, of course. I might have missed the meetings that decided to follow certain stories because they'd pump up the sales.

That said, I think it's clear that the mainstream press could do a better job. We do miss the resources needed to do deep investigative work.

But I have to disagree that it << takes something happening to someone of note before the mainstream press gives it the attention it deserves.>> Again, I think this is a shallow view.


Consider a completely Canadian instance -- the death of Ian Bush in RCMP custody in B.C. Kid was a small-town boy, family of no particular importance. The Globe followed the case diligently for years and essentially forced it into the public eye and made the Mounties deal with it.

'Nuff said.

I'll be on the lake in altogether too many months. But the boat show is coming up.



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Old 30-11-2007, 09:19   #13
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I was going to comment about life jackets, but I don't see that as being an obvious way it would have saved her life. And that's what we're talking about, right? Not just rattling through a list of safety ideas, regardless of whether or not that would have saved her life?

In that kind of weather, with that kind of ship, it would obviously increase your chances of survival, but in the few really nasty storms I've been in, if you go over, you're gone. There's a few stories in "Heavy Weather Sailing" that back that up as well.

I would going to bring up the "what about harnesses?" question, but I've never crewed on a ship that big, so I didn't know if all the lines terminate at the deck. Even if they do, or you manage to secure all the top sails, there's still a chance something will foul somewhere, and you'd need to go up there to take care of it.

Maybe the engines are that good and that reliable, but I was raised to sail a boat through storms and lulls; engines are auxilliary, and should always be treated as such.

Not trying to argue with anyone, just looking for some clarification from someone that has some experience on 150' big rigged boats.
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Old 30-11-2007, 10:46   #14
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Showtime!

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Originally Posted by Connemara View Post
'Nuff said.

I'll be on the lake in altogether too many months. But the boat show is coming up.

Connemara
Agreed. See you at the show, I'll buy you a beer, you can buy me a Globe. And over the beer explain to me why the Leafs always suck!
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Old 30-11-2007, 10:59   #15
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In anything but ideal conditions with water temps below 60 degrees, life jackets just make the possibility of recovering a body a little better. In those waters, your time before unconsciousness is a few minutes and death in a few minutes more. The chances of finding someone that goes overboard in those conditions is near zero. Even in good conditions, it's not good. Remember the young man who fell overboard on a sail outside San Francisco a year or so ago. Very benign conditions yet he died of hypothermia when they lost site of him after he went overboard. The life jacket just made it possible to recover the body a couple hours later.

Maybe Jacklines should have been rigged and harnesses required. It was a big ship and probably something that they almost never had to consider. A little difference between me hooking up ALL the time I'm on the deck of my 35 footer because of the ever present danger of going for a swim and the deck of a 150 footer.

As far as the news coverage, "If it bleeds, it leads" If it bleeds famously, it wll lead for a lot longer. The news media are a bunch of jackals not concerned with the truth only with the 'story.' They need to sell their rags or get ratings to be sure the paycheck keeps happening.

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