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Old 26-11-2008, 16:34   #16
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After learning from other posts and quite a bit of pondering (Sam Adams style) I think I should revise my post.

Most people would prefer to make a moral living. The morality must come from religion or government. Perceived necessity or the lack of morality (religion or government) causes this behavior.

Either way, the criminals need to be dealt with severely! Public execution is appropriate for this crime in this part of the world as it provides the needed message to those considering this path.
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Old 27-11-2008, 04:52   #17
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... The morality must come from religion or government. Perceived necessity or the lack of morality (religion or government) causes this behavior...
Gods and Governments command laws.
People (philosophers) develop, through principled reason and intuition, ethics and morals (code of conduct).
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Old 27-11-2008, 08:18   #18
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While not wishing to minimize the significance of any of the 5 incidents in the Porlamar area of Margarita Island that were referred to as PIRACY in the posting by BassAckwards, none of the incidents were in fact acts of piracy:

NONE involved attacks on boats that were underway.
THREE OF FIVE involved thefts, or attempted thefts from boats under anchor. In none of these was violence either used or threatened; in one boat the 'pirates' (actually thieves) were frightened off when they discovered the boat was occupied. In the third, the owner discovered that his fenders had been cut off and stolen from his boat, as well as lines and his liferaft. Does anyone here doubt that similar thefts occur on a regular basis from boats everywhere? Are all thefts of inflatables or from anchored boats to now be referred to as acts of piracy, or only if they occur in Venezuela?

THE REMAINING TWO incidents were more serious in that the occupants of the boats under anchor were tied up while the thieves rummaged for valuables. However, as serious as they incidents were, in neither case was there the use, or threatened use of weapons, nor were there injuries or assaults apart from act of being tied up and no doubt terrified.

Yes, there are areas in Venezuela that have been subject to serious, violent crime against yachters and which should be avoided at present. Furthermore, there is one area on Margartia where a violent attack on boaters has been reported in the last few years (not referred in the above report as now somewhat dated, but a couple of attacks have occurred in an isolated area by Roblidal). Furthermore, thefts while under anchor in the Porlamar area are obviously a real possibility (three of the reported 70 boats under anchor, but largely unoccupied in Porlamar during the July 4th celebrations did, as mentioned, actually suffer thefts - and a couple of unfortunate boaters suffered what we in North America would refer to as 'home invasions'.

I should point out that Porlamar is a relatively large, built-up city (over 200,000 people in the area) and that secure docking is available for those who want to avoid theft. Put another way, I suspect that those who choose to anchor close to shore in any large city must recognize and accept an increased risk of theft.

Margarita Island is still a beautiful island with a terrific infrastructure and incredibly inexpensive provisioning (including 20 cent a gallon diesel); it also falls below the hurricane belt and is therefore within the rather small area of the Caribbean now covered by insurers during hurricane season. If you wish to visit a large city like Porlamar for handy re-provisioning, stay at the marina. If you wish to stay in a large city (the only one on the island) longer in order to enjoy the casinos, restaurants, night clubs and shopping, then recognize that there will be a risk of theft, particularly from an unoccupied boat, if you choose to anchor. You may be better advised to stay at the marina (and while I am not able to give you the current fees, they have traditionally been much less than marinas elsewhere in the Caribbean - think in the range of $20.00USD a night for a 40 foot boat).

There are other areas on Margarita that are relatively safe and secure anchorages (and from which there have been no similar reports), and buddy-boating should be sufficient to minimize your risks. But please don't let alarmist reports (which paint acts of theft or burglary as piracy) keep you away from an entire island. Consider the benefits versus the real risks and use your common sense.

If you prefer, you could also while away the hurricane season on Trinidad (at least as many reports of theft/violent crime in the last several years as Margarita, and in particular armed robberies from boaters just outside the gates of marinas which transients most commonly use). Or, you could go to Aruba or Curacao where I understand they no longer even permit anchoring. In the case of all three, you will find that supplies/boat repairs are much more expensive, as are the cost of marina slips. You could also travel to Columbia where at least boat repairs and food are also relatively inexpensive, but where the levels of violence towards foreigners (and in particular kidnappings) is worse than not only Margarita Island, but mainland Venezuela.

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Old 27-11-2008, 11:48   #19
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Just to add to SouthernStar's comments, I had my dingy stolen in Vancouver over 20 years ago. Piracy or simple theft? Not to mention gross carelessness by the owner <gr>.

I wanted to ask a question, about ethics and morality as coming from religion or government. Are the people in the financial industries who have given themselves huge bonuses while causing massive harm to the world economy acting ethically, morally? Or are they perhaps more greedy than the pirates in that they probably (at least many of them) are members of a (probably) Christian religion and live in countries ruled by law? How about the business men who add poison to baby milk? Or the fishing companies that drag the bottoms of the worlds oceans? Or the politicians who watch their friends do all of the above without making changes to protect their constituents? Just thought these questions fit in to a discussion on piracy. No intent to offend.
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Old 27-11-2008, 13:39   #20
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Deepfrz I hear you. I had the outboard for my inflatable stolen at my marina in Bath, Ontario even though it was chained on the outboard storage bracket. This is a peaceful little town of about 1500 people! I also recently prosecuted two people who boarded an occupied boat at night in another small town on Lake Ontario. Steer clear of THE PIRATES OF ONTARIO!

In addition there are also, as you suggest, a goodly number of people in business/government who are just as deserving of the description. Having said all of that, one still needs to exercize care and common sense regarding destinations/anchorages anywhere in the world. Keep abreast of the number/type of incidents in specific locations and exercize good judgment.

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Old 27-11-2008, 14:49   #21
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Originally Posted by amytom View Post

Most people would prefer to make a moral living. The morality must come from religion or government. Perceived necessity or the lack of morality (religion or government) causes this behavior.
Yeah, more religion - that always helps I think Government morality is an oxymoron

Morality is a funny thing, it doesn't really exist - simply what various tribes agree between themselves from time to time. Trouble starts when the moral practices of Tribes collide.

FWIW I don't see what the Somalis are doing as immoral or even wrong - it's simply business and free market capitalism at that . The strong take from the weak. Sometimes they wrap it up in laws and sometimes they don't. Always have done and always will. Leave the Somalis alone for a few more years and they will come up with their own laws (and enforcement) to protect the wealth of the Pirates.........from those who would steal it. Our societies did

Not to say that I have any great problem with killing a few people who are Pirates. Cost of doing business, kinda like a work place injury.
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Old 27-11-2008, 15:26   #22
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Yeah, more religion - that always helps I think Government morality is an oxymoron

Morality is a funny thing, it doesn't really exist - simply what various tribes agree between themselves from time to time. Trouble starts when the moral practices of Tribes collide.

FWIW I don't see what the Somalis are doing as immoral or even wrong - it's simply business and free market capitalism at that . The strong take from the weak. Sometimes they wrap it up in laws and sometimes they don't. Always have done and always will. Leave the Somalis alone for a few more years and they will come up with their own laws (and enforcement) to protect the wealth of the Pirates.........from those who would steal it. Our societies did

Not to say that I have any great problem with killing a few people who are Pirates. Cost of doing business, kinda like a work place injury.

Leave the Somalis alone and soon the "Somali Government" will be taxing the Pirates.

Then see what happens.

The pirates will rebel against the "government" or lets say the taxation.

Then the "Somali Government" will seize the pirates assets as soon as they pull into port and demand the ransom be payed directly to them not the pirates.

The "Somali Government" will tax the ransom, then apply late fees. and other fines, surcharges etc and give the pirates a bill for administrative fees associated with the captured ship. You know, like dockage, feeding the captives, sewage discharge and other clean water act stuff,
Illegal import of marine growth. It all adds up and if wasn't for them pirates the ports wouldn't have to handle such problems.

You can see where this will lead. The pirates will be doing all the work, the "Somali Government" will be making all the profit.
The Somali hoes will no longer be interested in the pirates because...they don't have no clams.

The pirates will stop stealing boats because there's no profit in it.

I think we all need to just relax and this whole thing will resolve itself.


Or we can hope the pirates all meet horrible violent deaths like they deserve.

Either way its all good.
So uhh....anyone else sitting around in front of the computer drinking tonight?
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Old 27-11-2008, 18:42   #23
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While not wishing to minimize the significance of any of the 5 incidents in the Porlamar area of Margarita Island that were referred to as PIRACY in the posting by BassAckwards, none of the incidents were in fact acts of piracy:
But then you proceed to minimize. As the adage goes, you can put lipstick on a pirate, but he is still a pirate.



<<Piracy is robbery committed at sea, or sometimes on shore, without permission from a nation>>

Permission from a nation? Oh well....

<<Maritime piracy, according to the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea (UNCLOS) of 1982, consists of any criminal acts of violence, detention, or depredation committed for private ends by the crew or the passengers of a private ship or aircraft that is directed on the high seas against another ship, aircraft, or against persons or property on board a ship or aircraft. Piracy can also be committed against a ship, aircraft, persons, or property in a place outside the jurisdiction of any state.>>

Piracy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Old 28-11-2008, 06:51   #24
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While it’s sometimes interesting to hypothesize various philosophical theories of crime & punishment, governance, ethics and morality, etc - this is a Cruising Forum.

It appears we aren’t mature enough to maintain a focused discussion without diverging into potentially contentious digressions.

Accordingly, I’m closing this thread.

You may lodge objections PRIVATELY, to any Moderator/Administrator, including myself, or with the Report Post button (red triangle /w exclamation).
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