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Old 31-03-2015, 12:53   #76
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Re: MOB Procedures

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Originally Posted by Hydra View Post
I suppose we could separate the practising in 2 stages:
- manoeuvring the boat to come alongside the MOB, done with a dummy in the water
- recovering the MOB, done at anchor with a real person, clad in a wetsuit or an immersion suit.

Of course, the recovery wouldn't exactly replicate the real thing, since the boat motions and the flogging sails wouldn't be there.

Alain
That sounds like a good compromise. One more idea to add, is if DH really wanted to try it in his highly controlled environment, then in addition to the controls he mentioned, I would recommend a helmet as an additional control. The style you wear while white water canoeing works well.

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Old 31-03-2015, 13:01   #77
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Re: MOB Procedures

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Originally Posted by Dauntlessny View Post
I'll be in the Baltic this summer. Should we run into one another, I'd do a practice with you.

The only issue i have with practicing with a real person, is that it's still not the same as in an emergency, when it may be practical to take more risks.

Also I'm not sure what the conclusion was about approaching the MOB downwind, the the MOB must be upwind of the boat. For the person concerned about the waves flinging the MOB into the boat. What do you think will happen if the boat is upwind? the winds will push the 20K+ lb boat on top of the MOB. That's a little worse situation.
I agree completely, that no training, even with a real person, will ever quite replicate an actual emergency, but that's true of almost every kind of emergency training, isn't it?

Therefore, we would do it only in reasonably calm weather, and only with help standing by, etc., etc. Not at all realistic, but still enormously helpful, I think, compared to "rescuing" fenders.

Where will you be in the middle of May? We should be through the Kiel Canal by then, weather gods willing, and I'll have a full crew on board including our own Carsten of this parish. That would be a great time to do exercises.

It would be enormously educational, and maybe even fun (if nothing goes wrong ).

We would want to notify the Coast Guard, I guess, beforehand. I'm not sure what the Deutsche Kuestenwache would think about such shenanigans -- in my experience they don't have much of a sense of humor.
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Old 31-03-2015, 13:03   #78
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Re: MOB Procedures

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Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
DH,

Are you volunteering for the job?

Come on over here to Sardegna this June, we'll practice on you. I even have a survival suit for you to wear in case we get it all wrong the first few times.


I think it's best to practice with a fender, why endanger someone and create a disaster? 54ft yacht bouncing around in the waves, volunteer banging up against the hull.... that is if you don't chop him up first trying the get the engine and prop stuff right.
Sounds like a damned good excuse to visit Sardinia. I'll bring the whiskey.
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Old 31-03-2015, 13:09   #79
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Re: MOB Procedures

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Originally Posted by Hydra View Post
I suppose we could separate the practising in 2 stages:
- manoeuvring the boat to come alongside the MOB, done with a dummy in the water
- recovering the MOB, done at anchor with a real person, clad in a wetsuit or an immersion suit.

Of course, the recovery wouldn't exactly replicate the real thing, since the boat motions and the flogging sails wouldn't be there.

Alain
That's a very sensible, good idea, which would significantly reduce the risks.

However -- I would really like to experience being overboard in real life -- not at anchor. And picking up a real person who's really overboard.

Our dinghy is an 11' RIB with 25hp outboard -- I would have a trusty (and burly) shipmate standing by in the RIB in case anything goes wrong. I can climb into my RIB from the water and without help -- tested in another MOB case which I wrote about on here.

Film the whole thing on GoPros and make a movie out of it.

I think we should do it. Several times, with different "victims". To work out best tactics and really get the hang of it.

Also, deploying the lifejackets for real -- something I've never done in real life.
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Old 31-03-2015, 13:13   #80
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Re: MOB Procedures

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Originally Posted by FamilyVan View Post
That sounds like a good compromise. One more idea to add, is if DH really wanted to try it in his highly controlled environment, then in addition to the controls he mentioned, I would recommend a helmet as an additional control. The style you wear while white water canoeing works well.
The helmet is a bloody excellent idea. I will acquire one. Great idea.
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Old 31-03-2015, 13:21   #81
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Re: MOB Procedures

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
That's a very sensible, good idea, which would significantly reduce the risks.

However -- I would really like to experience being overboard in real life -- not at anchor. And picking up a real person who's really overboard.

Our dinghy is an 11' RIB with 25hp outboard -- I would have a trusty (and burly) shipmate standing by in the RIB in case anything goes wrong. I can climb into my RIB from the water and without help -- tested in another MOB case which I wrote about on here.

Film the whole thing on GoPros and make a movie out of it.

I think we should do it. Several times, with different "victims". To work out best tactics and really get the hang of it.

Also, deploying the lifejackets for real -- something I've never done in real life.
I'm your man (overboard). I would love to do it again. I have my own wetsuit (7mm). At 200lb, I think I could give a good idea of the thing.

Alain
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Old 31-03-2015, 14:42   #82
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Re: MOB Procedures

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Originally Posted by Hydra View Post
I'm your man (overboard). I would love to do it again. I have my own wetsuit (7mm). At 200lb, I think I could give a good idea of the thing.

Alain
The more the merrier. Only - I think fully clothed and in deck shoes would be far more realistic, than in a wetsuit.
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Old 31-03-2015, 14:49   #83
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Re: MOB Procedures

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Originally Posted by FamilyVan View Post
I have practised a lot with real people, especially in my Coast Guard SAR days, both as victim and rescuer. Always in immersion suits (I've done Halifax Harbour in March and Summerside ferry terminal in February). I never felt comfortable with using real people. I never saw the reward outweighed the risk. The practice stopped when I had enough bars on my shoulders to make my own decisions.

I would encourage people if they really want to try recovering real people then to do it at anchor and wear a life jacket.

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I respect that very much, but I think a sailboat is very different from a ship. Much greater risk of going over, and much less risk of disaster during the recovery (if you set it up right). It seems to me that for us, knowing what it's actually like could be a life saver.
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Old 31-03-2015, 22:10   #84
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Re: MOB Procedures

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Sounds like a damned good excuse to visit Sardinia. I'll bring the whiskey.
Anytime this summer will be fine. You're welcome anytime for however long you wish. I already have the helmet, gumby suit, Gopro, Lifesling, AED, suture kit and medical personnel onboard.

Come on down.
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Old 01-04-2015, 01:00   #85
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Re: MOB Procedures

Years ago, when I took my first sailing course, we practiced MOB using a floating fender with a flag. towards the end of the course, the instructor said - now let's make it realistic and he brought out a volleyball with a bit of chain on it. When he threw that into the water - we almost couldn't find it. when we finally found it, we couldn't get it on board. it finally requried one of us on the bathing platform and the boat backed up towards the ball, before we could recover it .

He also made us rig a block and tackle from the boom and kept time. we were nowhere near finished when he said "youcan forget it - he's dead from hypothermia.

Moral? MOB operations need to be practiced and you need something like a net or similar - otherwise you MOB will die. especially f all this is taking place in the dark/rough weather
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Old 01-04-2015, 03:18   #86
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Re: MOB Procedures

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Originally Posted by carstenb View Post
Years ago, when I took my first sailing course, we practiced MOB using a floating fender with a flag. towards the end of the course, the instructor said - now let's make it realistic and he brought out a volleyball with a bit of chain on it. When he threw that into the water - we almost couldn't find it. when we finally found it, we couldn't get it on board. it finally requried one of us on the bathing platform and the boat backed up towards the ball, before we could recover it .

He also made us rig a block and tackle from the boom and kept time. we were nowhere near finished when he said "youcan forget it - he's dead from hypothermia.

Moral? MOB operations need to be practiced and you need something like a net or similar - otherwise you MOB will die. especially f all this is taking place in the dark/rough weather
Sounds like you had a good teacher!


Concerning the net -- I always thought I would preventer out the boom and use a block and tackle with the lifesling. Much faster to rig than a parbuckle and easier to handle than a net. But I guess the rub is if the victim is unconscious, isn't it? Hmmm.
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Old 01-04-2015, 03:23   #87
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Re: MOB Procedures

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This actually looks like a very clever device:

MS.00 - Markus Lifenet Ltd.
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Old 01-04-2015, 03:33   #88
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Re: MOB Procedures

Here's the YM test, done with real people really overboard, in a F7:

Testing MOB retrieval and recovery kit

MOB retrieval and recovery - Yachting Monthly

But on a mooring, as FamilyVan suggested.
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Old 01-04-2015, 07:46   #89
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Re: MOB Procedures

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Did you ever practice with a real person?


That would be the acid test, I think. I always thought it would be far too risky, but if you give the "victim" a manually-activated MOB beacon and a radio, and you do it say in the Solent close to shore and rescue services, and if you have another boat to stand by and observe -- I would think it would be acceptably safe, and incredibly valuable for all concerned.
Commercially no. Non on a bet. Privately yes. I am in Australia so its a little hard to do it in the Solent lol. However, a commercial Sydney harbor made it challenging for students at times.

Thankfully no life buoy was lost or injured during our MOB training.
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Old 06-04-2015, 09:53   #90
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Re: MOB Procedures

I think it would be a good idea to merge this thread with another one started over the weekend by CF member Bulawayo titled "Personal Overboard kit."

A couple of items we've added to our overboard plan thanks to the suggestions by Bulawayo:

1. Dive type 300 lumen torches (flashlights) to our life vests which are the European crotch strap type inflatable variety, not the semi-useless US version without the crotch straps.

2. Personal EPIRBs attached to the life vests.

Our MOB preventative procedures have included and continue to include: Nobody on deck at night without a life vest that's tethered to the boat including when we're in the cockpit. Neither of us goes forward on deck at night without the other being on deck and the person going forward (nearly always me) being tethered to the heavy duty jacklines. When I sail alone, I (nearly) always wear a life vest when I head forward during the day in calm, flat seas, and always while in the cockpit when the boat is healed over with the addition of the tether. The addition of the personal EPIRB will be added security... just in case.
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