Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 29-03-2015, 22:03   #31
Registered User
 
ryon's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Southern California
Posts: 588
Re: MOB Procedures

Call all hands. Throw MOB pole, push MOB button, maintain visual, throw trash in the water. Helm notes course, starts engine, begins Williamson turn, then steers reciprocal. Get sails in, any way you can. Control your crew! Get spotters as high as you can, without endangering themselves or the rescue. NOBODY goes in the water without your command.

I participated in a rescue last year of a lady that had fallen off another boat. You won't believe how hard it is to find a floating person when a sea is running. That MOB pole and trash patch are vital.
__________________

__________________
ryon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-03-2015, 05:12   #32
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 19,735
Re: MOB Procedures

Quote:
Originally Posted by ryon View Post
Call all hands. Throw MOB pole, push MOB button, maintain visual, throw trash in the water. Helm notes course, starts engine, begins Williamson turn, then steers reciprocal. Get sails in, any way you can. Control your crew! Get spotters as high as you can, without endangering themselves or the rescue. NOBODY goes in the water without your command.

I participated in a rescue last year of a lady that had fallen off another boat. You won't believe how hard it is to find a floating person when a sea is running. That MOB pole and trash patch are vital.
Maybe this characterizes me as not as hard core sailor as some here, but I would just not want to pick up a MOB under sail. I could do it if I had to, but why would you put up with less maneuverability and the necessity to faff with sails, when you need all possible concentration on finding the person and getting him on board? Also, sails up seriously interfere with visibility forward, which I don't think you can afford in such a situation. And what if you slightly overshoot -- my boom is more than 20 feet long; we're not going to be backwinding the main by hand the way we'd do in a dinghy. It just seems like a bad idea to try to do it under sail, despite the propeller risk.

I would stop the boat immediately with a crash tack onto a hove-to position (even from sailing downwind; in that case you have to head up first). Start the motor, get the sails in, and go. It seems to me that stopping the boat is essential in order to limit the amount of distance between you and the victim. CF comment above about how hard a person is to find in the drink with a sea running. That is the stuff of nightmares.

I have bought one, and will soon buy another AIS MOB beacon. I have two 275kN life jackets which are specifically for whoever is working on deck (the other jackets are 150kN). These will both be equipped with the MOB beacons. That will enormously simplify finding a victim; however, this is not a panacea, as (a) we don't always wear life jackets, and (b) it's not only people working on deck who fall off.

The rule on my boat is that life jackets (and if appropriate, tethers) go on in five cases: (a) you feel like it for any reason or no reason at all -- listen to that feeling; (b) it's rough (F6 or more) and you're leaving the cockpit; (c) it's really rough (F8 or more) even in the cockpit; (d) it's night time and you leave the cockpit; (e) any complicated work on the foredeck even if it's not rough.

It's in contrast to my father's boat, where I don't think I even know what the life jackets look like. But in SW Florida, not much reason to be out in rough weather, and the water is as warm as a bathtub.
__________________

__________________
Dockhead is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 30-03-2015, 05:45   #33
Registered User
 
FamilyVan's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 1,779
Re: MOB Procedures

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hydra View Post

I think that a boat (power or sail) drifts faster on the water than a person with only the head above water. Keeping in mind that we often sail short-handed, I find this a good reason for keeping the MOB on the lee side: contact will be maintained.

Alain
Wind will generally cause a boat to drift faster than a PIW. Current will generally have a more immediate affect on the drift rate of a PIW. If wind and current are contrary, then the effects will be very different.

This is why it's useful to stop and assess.

Sent from my SGH-I547C using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
__________________
FamilyVan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-03-2015, 06:20   #34
Senior Cruiser
 
Kenomac's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Somewhere in the Adriatic Sea
Boat: Oyster 53 Cutter
Posts: 8,510
Re: MOB Procedures

Throwing floating stuff overboard is useless and a waste of valuable time.... except for the beacon marker in the dark.

The water temp was 62 F when the dog fell in and the idiot broker immediately jumped in after him, fully clothed off my boat five years ago in March. The wind was blowing 22 knots, choppy seas just inside the harbor entrance, full sails up, boat heeled way over going 7-8 knots.... and I was left sailing our Hunter 450 alone.

Believe me, the knucklehead and his dog were cold after less than 4 minutes in the water. The Lifesling method is awesome... foolproof if you practice it.

Here's another successful Lifesling rescue story which explains why. The MOB was helpless in his gear and nearly dead after only 4 minutes in the water.
__________________
Kenomac is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 30-03-2015, 09:36   #35
Senior Cruiser
 
jackdale's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Calgary, AB, Canada
Posts: 5,040
Images: 1
Re: MOB Procedures

Quote:
Originally Posted by ryon View Post
Call all hands. Throw MOB pole, push MOB button, maintain visual, throw trash in the water. Helm notes course, starts engine, begins Williamson turn, then steers reciprocal. Get sails in, any way you can. Control your crew! Get spotters as high as you can, without endangering themselves or the rescue. NOBODY goes in the water without your command.

I participated in a rescue last year of a lady that had fallen off another boat. You won't believe how hard it is to find a floating person when a sea is running. That MOB pole and trash patch are vital.
For an MOB under power, I teach both the Anderson and Williamson turn. The former is used if the you see the MOB and respond immediately, the latter is used if the MOB was not noticed and some time has transpired.

The datum pole and the MOB button are essential when you see an MOB occur.

We also will use a life ring with an automatic strobe attached.

My crew are required to wear pdf's at all times on deck underway. When night sailing strobes, jacklines and tethers are required. In heavy seas jacklines and tethers are required.

In 40,000 no one has gone overboard. (Knock on wood.)
__________________
ISPA Yachtmaster Ocean Instructor Evaluator
Sail Canada Advanced Cruising Instructor
IYT Yachtmaster Coastal Instructor
ASA 201, 203,204, 205, 206, 214
As I sail, I praise God, and care not. (Luke Foxe)
jackdale is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-03-2015, 09:52   #36
Senior Cruiser
 
Kenomac's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Somewhere in the Adriatic Sea
Boat: Oyster 53 Cutter
Posts: 8,510
Re: MOB Procedures

I wish more CF folks who've actually successfully dealt with a MOB situation would chime in on this thread, rather than folks who've never had to recover someone who's gone over the side. The speculators and theorists like on all forum discussions, seem to put forth loads if information which might sound good on front of the computer screen, but in a real life situation.... fails badly.

Throwing a bunch of crap into the water, like cushions, poles and trash doesn't work! The person in the water in most cases can't get to it or even see it. You need to bring the float to the MOB. So unless your objective is to recover a body, the primary purpose of an effective MOB plan should be to get the victim back on board within 3-4 minutes maximum before they either drown or hypothermia sets in.

Another thing, most CF folks sail as a couple, so the MOB plan has to be one that is designed around one single person initiating and carrying out the rescue. So tell me how one person is going to lower all the sails, come about or into the wind, start up the engine, throw all the crap into the water, and at the same time maintain a constant visual of the victim? All in less than five minute. Not going to happen... The plan needs to include having the sails up and maintaining maneuverability to get close to the MOB. Assuming the MOB will make their way to a boat that's stationary is folly.

Two things I realized almost immediately in my MOB situation... I tossed the Lifesling off the stern only to see it fall straight down onto the surface along with the line, 100ft -200 ft from the MOB. So obviously that wasn't going to work. I noticed at the same moment, that the boat under full speed had traveled 4-5 boat lengths from the victims over 200ft. I needed to get back to them. I tried to furl in the sails, but it quickly became apparent that that was going to waste way too much time, so I started up the engine and came around with the sails still up, back winding the jib and made a couple of circles around them in order to bring the Lifesling to them.

If I had to do it over again, I would not have used the engine. Fortunately, I remembered to place the transmission in neutral when the MOB and DOB were at the stern sugar scoop, so I didn't chop them up, foul the line in the prop or draw them under if the line became fouled in the prop.
__________________
Kenomac is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 30-03-2015, 10:21   #37
Registered User
 
FamilyVan's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 1,779
Re: MOB Procedures

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
I wish more CF folks who've actually successfully dealt with a MOB situation would chime in on this thread, rather than folks who've never had to recover someone who's gone over the side. The speculators and theorists like on all forum discussions, seem to put forth loads if information which might sound good on front of the computer screen, but in a real life situation.... fails badly.

Throwing a bunch of crap into the water, like cushions, poles and trash doesn't work! The person in the water in most cases can't get to it or even see it. You need to bring the float to the MOB. So unless your objective is to recover a body, the primary purpose of an effective MOB plan should be to get the victim back on board within 3-4 minutes maximum before they either drown or hypothermia sets in.
I've recovered several MOBs. I agree that throwing crap in the water doesn't help unless it's designed for that (mob pole or life ring etc).

You need to be close to get a throw bag to him, and very close to get a life ring to him. The best method I know of is to drive the whole boat to the guy, although I wouldn't try this under sail- just get close enough to throw a line.

In 2012 I picked up a jumper off a ferry. We drove our (200 ton) boat right up to her. We stopped beside her square at the centre of our recovery well. I went out side and threw (dropped) a life ring to her. She refused to grab onto it! Her goal had been to do herself in. I stood there on the wing on the second deck arguing with her about grabbing the life ring rather than drowning in front of me. She eventually grabbed the life ring and the police boat we called eventually pulled her out of the water. This was June on the great lakes- so the water was cold, she was fully dressed.

I would say procedures are a key element to a successful rescue, making stuff up in an emergency usually leads to dumb ideas.

Practise is important. If you're under power you should be able to drive right to him.

Finding the guy is the most important part. Thats why you asign somebody to point and never take their eyes off if possible. In some cases it will be easy, other cases will be impossible, but you can stack the deck your favour with things like lights and wearing pfd s. We actually wear submersible hand held vhfs after dark.

I've never found the need to panic during an MOB, in fact a certain amouny of heckling and insults seems to be common, since nearly every MOB ive ever been involved in was the result of stupidity.

Work quickly but in a controlled fashion. If you rush, you'll mess it all up. Make sure you're in control of the situation, do not let the situation control you.

Sent from my SGH-I547C using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
__________________
FamilyVan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-03-2015, 11:35   #38
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 19,735
Re: MOB Procedures

Ken, your experience is incredibly valuable, and I've read your account over and over again.

However, as FamilyVan has pointed out, you need procedure for emergencies like this, and I think, checklists -- thoroughly memorized and practiced. You don't want to be improvising in the shock of the moment when a disaster like this strikes.

Therefore, I think there's a place for thinking this through thoroughly ahead of time -- called "theory".

Your point about there being no time for anything is extremely well taken -- I think that's the crux of the problem. There will certainly be no time to reflect and figure out what to do -- hence the need for the checklist, which you memorize.

I am still digesting all of the many very interesting and useful comments in this thread.

I keep working on the checklist and look forward to doing some practice this summer on the water.

I think Ken's idea of leaving the sails up and just motoring against them is great -- saves a lot of time. But won't work in strong conditions. What happened to him happened in fairly benign conditions, which are fairly unusual in my waters.

I think up here the best thing to do is going to be crash stop the boat right now -- to stop urgently, putting distance between yourself and the victim. Once you're stopped, then you'll have a moment to get the sails in, which will be necessary if it's windy.

If you see the victim go over, I think it should be possible if the sea is not too high to stop quickly enough to keep the victim in sight, which I think must be of paramount importance if it's possible. This is something which can be profitably practiced with a fender.

The longer it takes you to get stopped, the bigger the search radius becomes -- geometrically. So surely this is absolutely crucial.

An agonizing decision would be if you're alone at the helm whether or not it's worth taking the time to throw out the danbuoy. According to everything I've heard, this is 10x or 20x easier to see when a sea is running, then the victim's head, so an incredibly valuable aid to finding the victim. I would be interested in people's views on that -- delay stopping to get the danbuoy down? Or forget the danbuoy and concentrate on getting stopped? It's a serious question on my boat, where the helm is a good 25 feet from the stern rail. Maybe not so much on an aft cockpit boat. A remotely triggered danbuoy would be a really good thing to have, it seems to me.
__________________
Dockhead is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 30-03-2015, 11:38   #39
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 19,735
Re: MOB Procedures

An obviously if the victim has an AIS beacon, this is a total game-changer. Practically removes the search element. But I think even if you had a beacon for everyone on board, you couldn't be sure that a person going over would have it.
__________________
Dockhead is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 30-03-2015, 11:48   #40
Registered User
 
ryon's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Southern California
Posts: 588
Re: MOB Procedures

Excuse me, but I've done countless MOB drills on several different types of boats, and recovered a missing woman last year who was lost from another capsized boat. If someone here wants to compare credentials, then bring it on.

This was on windy, sloppy SoCal April day. We came upon a capsized sailing dinghy a mile or two offshore, with a shivering youth who said his mother had gone overboard about twenty minutes earlier. He threw her the only life vest on board. That is the situation we were faced with.

To recover someone, you have to find them first. Hence, my comment about the jetsam. If you lose a passenger, you mark the closest spot in the best way you can. Use whatever debris you have on hand to establish a trail that you can follow back to locate them. Of course, we were nowhere near the MOB when we came upon the young man, so we didn't do that. Different circumstances call for different measures. We did start the engine, dowse the sails, recover the youth, and begin a search to windward. It took another fifteen or twenty minutes to spot her.

To recover someone, you have to find them first. If you find yourself in a situation where somebody's life is at stake, they went overboard in sloppy conditions, and visual is lost, you will be glad that someone thought to rip up the ship's Chapman's and leave a trail back to them. As I tried to stress earlier, you will not believe how difficult it is to spot someone alone in the water, especially if there is any chop or waves running.
__________________
ryon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-03-2015, 11:49   #41
Senior Cruiser
 
Kenomac's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Somewhere in the Adriatic Sea
Boat: Oyster 53 Cutter
Posts: 8,510
Re: MOB Procedures

Dockhead,

The monkey wrench, or rather monkey spanner in your plan is the part about completing all of your checklist tasks whilst retaining the visual contact with the MOB. If you leave the sails alone, the visual can be maintained if you find yourself faced with a singlehanded rescue.

Otherwise, you're going to have to practice dropping your sails while looking at a distant object dancing up and down in the waves 200 meters away... disappearing and reappearing in order to get a true feel as to whether or not the plan will work. Even with a furling system, it can't be done. Keep in mind, the person isn't going to fall in at the perfect moment when you just happen to be behind the helm.
__________________
Kenomac is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 30-03-2015, 11:59   #42
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 19,735
Re: MOB Procedures

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
Dockhead,

The monkey wrench, or rather monkey spanner in your plan is the part about completing all of your checklist tasks whilst retaining the visual contact with the MOB. If you leave the sails alone, the visual can be maintained if you find yourself faced with a singlehanded rescue.

Otherwise, you're going to have to practice dropping your sails while looking at a distant object dancing up and down in the waves 200 meters away... disappearing and reappearing in order to get a true feel as to whether or not the plan will work. Even with a furling system, it can't be done. Keep in mind, the person isn't going to fall in at the perfect moment when you just happen to be behind the helm.
That's a valuable observation. I would not follow that whole procedure if I were alone on deck. On the other hand, if you're alone on deck and it's blowing F8, can you maneuver under sail without taking your eyes off the victim? Unlikely, I think. Alone in strong weather, you'll have several very hard, life and death choices.
__________________
"Parce que je suis heureux en mer, et peut-Ítre pour sauver mon ame. . . "
Dockhead is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 30-03-2015, 12:12   #43
Senior Cruiser
 
Kenomac's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Somewhere in the Adriatic Sea
Boat: Oyster 53 Cutter
Posts: 8,510
Re: MOB Procedures

If you deploy the Lifesling then follow the procedure outlined on the canister which includes immediately turning into the wind, coming about and allowing the jib to back wind, the procedure will by itself allow the Lifesling float to find its way to your victim MOB.

Try it... It works like magic.

Did you watch the video? Have you tried out your Lifesling? Have you conducted a practice run using it?
__________________
Kenomac is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 30-03-2015, 12:14   #44
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 19,735
Re: MOB Procedures

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
If you deploy the Lifesling then follow the procedure outlined on the canister which includes immediately turning into the wind, coming about and allowing the jib to back wind, the procedure will by itself allow the Lifesling float to find its way to your victim MOB. Try it... It works like magic.

Did you watch the video?
I'll definitely try it. Haven't seen the vid yet, but will do so when I have land inet.
__________________
"Parce que je suis heureux en mer, et peut-Ítre pour sauver mon ame. . . "
Dockhead is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 30-03-2015, 12:29   #45
Registered User
 
FamilyVan's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 1,779
Re: MOB Procedures

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
Dockhead,

The monkey wrench, or rather monkey spanner in your plan is the part about completing all of your checklist tasks whilst retaining the visual contact with the MOB. If you leave the sails alone, the visual can be maintained if you find yourself faced with a singlehanded rescue.

Otherwise, you're going to have to practice dropping your sails while looking at a distant object dancing up and down in the waves 200 meters away... disappearing and reappearing in order to get a true feel as to whether or not the plan will work. Even with a furling system, it can't be done. Keep in mind, the person isn't going to fall in at the perfect moment when you just happen to be behind the helm.
My estimate is, you are correct Ken, if alone in strong winds you would not be able to check all the points on your list.
I think the majority of MOBs occur in relatively benign conditions and alcohol is often a factor. In benign conditions you follow your checklist mentally, casually. If your in an ugly situation though, you still go through your mental checklist.

Stop boat- check.
Throw life ring- check
MOB button pressed- check
Douse sails- oh snappin! I can't get that done! Next.
Williamson turn- Check

Or something like this.
If they were my procedures, and I never lost sight of the guy, wind conditions were such that I decided I had to drop my sails- I would drop my sails when I was down wind of the guy, assessing the situation, if possible.

Checklists really are life savers. They help you order your thoughts, they're a memory aid, they bring a critical thought process to an incident that by its nature doesn't allow time for critical analysis. A checklist should never be an exercise in paperwork.

Sent from my SGH-I547C using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
__________________

__________________
FamilyVan is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
mob

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Single-handed Docking Procedures sneuman Seamanship & Boat Handling 95 24-06-2013 17:59
Repair Procedures - Fiberglass Hull Blisters Bernie Eskesen Construction, Maintenance & Refit 15 14-10-2011 14:23
MOB Procedures markpj23 Seamanship & Boat Handling 103 06-04-2011 14:48
Immigration Procedures antonk Off Topic Forum 5 28-01-2008 09:40
New docking procedures--Oooops delmarrey The Sailor's Confessional 4 02-07-2005 06:57



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 20:08.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.