Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 01-08-2015, 08:42   #181
Registered User
 
Steady Hand's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Crewing All of 2017 Available Globally
Boat: OPB = Crewing in 2017
Posts: 4,851
Re: MOB Procedures

Quote:
Originally Posted by jackdale View Post
Have you ever executed a downwind MOB, either for real or practice?

10 seconds is about 3-4 boat lengths about 6 knots.
Hello Jack.

What follows is written in a truly friendly voice and with sincere respect for your experience and your knowledge and training (of yourself and others you train).
______________

To answer your question: Have I done MOB pickups downwind etc.

Yes. Yes I have. Many times. And in some very challenging conditions in San Francisco Bay, in addition to more "benign" conditions too. I have done it alone (single handing) and with newbie crew and with fully trained and very experienced race boat crew too.

Most importantly, I have seen for myself how easy it is to QUICKLY lose sight of the MOB target if there are waves, swell, whitecaps, glare, etc.

I always get a chuckle when I see a training video that is produced showing sailing maneuvers in almost flat calm water. While I realize that many boats sail in that kind of condition (light winds, little waves or almost no waves at all), and I recognize that those might seem to be "ideal" for the purpose of making a video (the cameraman's boat is more stabile etc.), those conditions do not seem much of a challenge or realistic.

In other words, I have seen the great difference that 20 knots of wind makes, and how even small chop (3 feet) and whitecaps and larger waves and even glare can make it almost impossible to see a MOB target (size of a head) on the water at anything over 2 boat lengths. It was "scary" to see how quickly the MOB target could be lost. Shocking.

Hence my earlier comment that I see no need to "count to ten" prior to executing the MOB recovery moves that are appropriate for the situation/conditions, etc.

I stand by my earlier comments regarding the need for QUICK action to reduce the amount of distance between the boat and the MOB.

Of course I don't want the QUICK action/maneuver to also cause another crew member to go overboard too, due to a rapid change of boat attitude/heel or boom swinging or sheets flying. So, proper commands AND response by any others on board the boat are required and should be practiced too.

But, since I am always open to learning something about sailing, and I do know you have a lot of experience, I will try your suggested methods next time I have an opportunity in the future.

But, if you were my guest and YOU fell overboard, I would do my very best to get the boat to you QUICKLY and without running past you and without counting to ten to execute the maneuver.
__________________

__________________
Ahoy All Sailors! Need experienced crew for a passage or delivery in Atlantic, Pacific, Caribbean, Med, PNW, ICW, coastal or across an ocean anytime in 2017? I am available on 24hr notice. See my CF Profile "About Me" page for details. Happy to lend a hand!
Steady Hand is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2015, 08:56   #182
Registered User
 
Steady Hand's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Crewing All of 2017 Available Globally
Boat: OPB = Crewing in 2017
Posts: 4,851
Re: MOB Procedures

Quote:
Originally Posted by estarzinger View Post
Yes, I have (practice) numerous times.

Get rid of the head sail ASAP (turn while doing it if possible) & motor back to MOB . . . may not be estheticslly or theoretically pleasing, but seems to me the most practical approach for 99% of real world cruising situations. I might note it's also what the Volvo boats do.
__________________

__________________
Ahoy All Sailors! Need experienced crew for a passage or delivery in Atlantic, Pacific, Caribbean, Med, PNW, ICW, coastal or across an ocean anytime in 2017? I am available on 24hr notice. See my CF Profile "About Me" page for details. Happy to lend a hand!
Steady Hand is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2015, 08:57   #183
Registered User
 
Steady Hand's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Crewing All of 2017 Available Globally
Boat: OPB = Crewing in 2017
Posts: 4,851
Re: MOB Procedures

Quote:
Originally Posted by carstenb View Post
My wife and I have practiced MOB many times. Both upwind and downwind and in everything from dead calm to heavy weather to semidarkness.First thing is that keeping the MOB in sight is damn difficult unless you thrown an MOB pole out.


We've dicided that in case of an MOB - punch the MOB button on the PLotter, throw the pole out, start the engine, and turn back.


Let the sails fly, We have a dutchman flaking system and we can just release the main halyard - the damn sail will come most of the way down itself. Haul the boom in tight and find the MOB


All those things can be done from the cockpit in just a few seconds. It is much easier to go back using the engine than the sails. Hauling the boom in tight is easy and means you won't have to worry about it flapping around.


We have personal AIS senders on our vests and we wear our vests whenever we are alone in the cockpit, going on deck (including tethers) or at night. If the weather turns rough, we clip in.




When we have guests on board, they also wear vests and we tell them it is forbidden to fall overboard. Also no one ever pees over the side on our boat - everyone goes below. NO exceptions
__________________
Ahoy All Sailors! Need experienced crew for a passage or delivery in Atlantic, Pacific, Caribbean, Med, PNW, ICW, coastal or across an ocean anytime in 2017? I am available on 24hr notice. See my CF Profile "About Me" page for details. Happy to lend a hand!
Steady Hand is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2015, 09:13   #184
Senior Cruiser
 
jackdale's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Calgary, AB, Canada
Posts: 5,048
Images: 1
Re: MOB Procedures

Quote:
Originally Posted by estarzinger View Post
Yes, I have (practice) numerous times.

Get rid of the head sail ASAP (turn while doing it if possible) & motor back to MOB . . . may not be estheticslly or theoretically pleasing, but seems to me the most practical approach for 99% of real world cruising situations. I might note it's also what the Volvo boats do.
That would be feasible.

My memories of having transmission destroyed by a piece of fishing net in the Pacific High make me want an alternative in case I do not have engine propulsion available to me. I guess that would make me part of the 1%.

When we eventually picked up the westerlies we were broad reaching for about a week.
__________________
ISPA Yachtmaster Ocean Instructor Evaluator
Sail Canada Advanced Cruising Instructor
IYT Yachtmaster Coastal Instructor
ASA 201, 203,204, 205, 206, 214
As I sail, I praise God, and care not. (Luke Foxe)
jackdale is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2015, 09:19   #185
Senior Cruiser
 
jackdale's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Calgary, AB, Canada
Posts: 5,048
Images: 1
Re: MOB Procedures

With regard to the 10 second pause: The figure 8 method used in upwind MOBs by Sail Canada (CYA) and some others involves a pause once you are on the beam reach to get some distance to allow for coming about.
__________________
ISPA Yachtmaster Ocean Instructor Evaluator
Sail Canada Advanced Cruising Instructor
IYT Yachtmaster Coastal Instructor
ASA 201, 203,204, 205, 206, 214
As I sail, I praise God, and care not. (Luke Foxe)
jackdale is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2015, 09:38   #186
Registered User
 
Steady Hand's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Crewing All of 2017 Available Globally
Boat: OPB = Crewing in 2017
Posts: 4,851
Re: MOB Procedures

Quote:
Originally Posted by jackdale View Post
That would be feasible.

My memories of having transmission destroyed by a piece of fishing net in the Pacific High make me want an alternative in case I do not have engine propulsion available to me. I guess that would make me part of the 1%.

When we eventually picked up the westerlies we were broad reaching for about a week.
I understand and empathize on the point about not depending entirely on an engine for recovery of MOB.

I have sailed enough on boats without an engine (or working engine) to appreciate that when one needs to get to the goal, one should know how to do so under sail alone.
__________________
Ahoy All Sailors! Need experienced crew for a passage or delivery in Atlantic, Pacific, Caribbean, Med, PNW, ICW, coastal or across an ocean anytime in 2017? I am available on 24hr notice. See my CF Profile "About Me" page for details. Happy to lend a hand!
Steady Hand is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2015, 09:39   #187
Registered User

Join Date: May 2015
Location: Florida
Boat: Jeanneau 44i SO
Posts: 139
Re: MOB Procedures

One thing has become very clear by reading all the various opinions on this subject. The sailing conditions at the time of the MOB will dictate what actions to take. And that all comes down to the judgement of the captain. There are many variables to consider. Under sail or power, number of crew available and their experience, seas, winds, day or night, electronics, water temperature, MOB injured, MOB wearing a PFD, and other not so critical factors.

Based on all of those variables everyone has valuable insight and suggestions that will work best in one situation or another. One thing that makes the most sense is to practice, practice, practice, and in as many different conditions as possible. Because when it actually happens you will need to consider all those variables and make the right choices in seconds. Nothing will work better then being well prepared with a tested set of actions.
__________________
l2ridehd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2015, 09:40   #188
Registered User
 
Steady Hand's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Crewing All of 2017 Available Globally
Boat: OPB = Crewing in 2017
Posts: 4,851
Re: MOB Procedures

Here is a link to what I consider the best description of an effective MOB recovery method.

Notice the source (Royal Ocean Racing Club). Notice the people who determined this was an optimum solution in most cases.
"In an effort to come up with a recovery system that is simple and lightning quick, the US Yacht Racing Union Safety at Sea Committee, the US Naval Academy Sailing Squadron, the Cruising Club of America Technical Committee and the Sailing Foundation of Seattle, Washington, joined forces to conduct extensive research and sea trials. The result of their collaboration is the "Quick-Stop" method of man-overboard recovery."
Notice the variations (spinnaker etc.).

Notice the use of the LifeSling and other tools to LIFT the MOB back aboard.

I highly recommend THIS SINGLE PAGE for review by any sailors/cruisers. It is easy to follow these instructions and well illustrated.

Man Overboard | general-conditions
__________________
Ahoy All Sailors! Need experienced crew for a passage or delivery in Atlantic, Pacific, Caribbean, Med, PNW, ICW, coastal or across an ocean anytime in 2017? I am available on 24hr notice. See my CF Profile "About Me" page for details. Happy to lend a hand!
Steady Hand is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2015, 09:43   #189
Registered User
 
Steady Hand's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Crewing All of 2017 Available Globally
Boat: OPB = Crewing in 2017
Posts: 4,851
Re: MOB Procedures

Quote:
Originally Posted by l2ridehd View Post
One thing has become very clear by reading all the various opinions on this subject. The sailing conditions at the time of the MOB will dictate what actions to take. And that all comes down to the judgement of the captain. There are many variables to consider. Under sail or power, number of crew available and their experience, seas, winds, day or night, electronics, water temperature, MOB injured, MOB wearing a PFD, and other not so critical factors.

Based on all of those variables everyone has valuable insight and suggestions that will work best in one situation or another. One thing that makes the most sense is to practice, practice, practice, and in as many different conditions as possible. Because when it actually happens you will need to consider all those variables and make the right choices in seconds. Nothing will work better then being well prepared with a tested set of actions.
__________________
Ahoy All Sailors! Need experienced crew for a passage or delivery in Atlantic, Pacific, Caribbean, Med, PNW, ICW, coastal or across an ocean anytime in 2017? I am available on 24hr notice. See my CF Profile "About Me" page for details. Happy to lend a hand!
Steady Hand is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2015, 09:46   #190
CF Adviser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2009
Boat: Custom Van De Stadt 47 Samoa
Posts: 3,755
Re: MOB Procedures

Quote:
Originally Posted by jackdale View Post
an alternative in case I do not have engine propulsion available to me.
I'm all for encouraging people to learn and practice to better sail their boat. But I will comment that we then go down paths that IMHO will vary significantly by boat and conditions and require seamanship judgement and not a rote procedure/check list. Just for instance, my last boat sailed beautifully under mainsail alone, needed care in a strong wind jibe, & did not heave to well . . . . and those parameters would significantly effect my approach to returning to an object or anchoring under sail. While my prior boat did not sail at all well with the main alone, posed no major jibe shock loads & hove to perfectly . . . . and required a different approach - it all could still be done under sail but differently.

That all said . . . . Diesels are extraordinarily reliable and simplify the whole task.
__________________
estarzinger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2015, 10:14   #191
Senior Cruiser
 
jackdale's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Calgary, AB, Canada
Posts: 5,048
Images: 1
Re: MOB Procedures

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steady Hand View Post
Here is a link to what I consider the best description of an effective MOB recovery method.

Notice the source (Royal Ocean Racing Club). Notice the people who determined this was an optimum solution in most cases.
"In an effort to come up with a recovery system that is simple and lightning quick, the US Yacht Racing Union Safety at Sea Committee, the US Naval Academy Sailing Squadron, the Cruising Club of America Technical Committee and the Sailing Foundation of Seattle, Washington, joined forces to conduct extensive research and sea trials. The result of their collaboration is the "Quick-Stop" method of man-overboard recovery."
Notice the variations (spinnaker etc.).

Notice the use of the LifeSling and other tools to LIFT the MOB back aboard.

I highly recommend THIS SINGLE PAGE for review by any sailors/cruisers. It is easy to follow these instructions and well illustrated.

Man Overboard | general-conditions
The heave-to, sail-to, heave-to method is a variation on the Quick Stop.

Downwind you still have sail back on a reach. I wish they had included a diagram. It would not look much different that what I showed.

The primary difference between the Quick Stop and heave-to, sail-to, heave-to is the leeward pickup while hove-to in which all sails are left up.

There have been some studies showing that, in a windward pick up, the boat makes leeway faster than the MOB.

Quote:
2. Positioning the boat to windward was the near-unanimous preference of
victims in sailboat tests (powerboat rescues involve other considerations).
Because boats drift downwind faster than people, a victim to windward may
be quickly separated from rescuers. In very rough weather, however, the boat
may blow down violently onto the victim. Victims were adamant that jibs be
doused or furled so flailing sheets do not threaten injury.
http://www.ussailing.org/wp-content/..._Symposium.pdf

Being hove-to put the vessel to windward and eliminates flailing sails.

And mostly importantly, get something that works on your boat with your crew.
__________________
ISPA Yachtmaster Ocean Instructor Evaluator
Sail Canada Advanced Cruising Instructor
IYT Yachtmaster Coastal Instructor
ASA 201, 203,204, 205, 206, 214
As I sail, I praise God, and care not. (Luke Foxe)
jackdale is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2015, 10:39   #192
Senior Cruiser
 
Kenomac's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Somewhere in the Adriatic Sea
Boat: Oyster 53 Cutter
Posts: 8,516
Re: MOB Procedures

It would be nice if others who've been thrust into an actual MOB situation would contribute their thoughts, other than the very few who have already done so.

Otherwise, much of this discussion becomes nothing more than hypothetical chit chat without the confusion, adrenalin and sense of urgency thrown into the mix.

It would also be good to know what doesn't work, so others won't repeat the mistakes.
__________________
Kenomac is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2015, 09:08   #193
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Wherever the wind takes me
Boat: Bristol 41.1
Posts: 809
Re: MOB Procedures

A forum member asked me if I would share an experience from another thread, so:

If you are of two minds, I would issue the Mayday rather than the Pan Pan. Better to overstate the emergency and perhaps ask forgiveness, than to understate an emergency and suffer a tragic outcome.

I have issued a Mayday only once. I was pulling out of a small marina in the Bahamas, paying careful attention to the very narrow and shallow (6-7 ft.) unmarked channel, when I noted what I thought at the time was a coconut in the water, well off to the north of the channel. I glanced back at the "coconut" several seconds later and thought I saw a hand above the water next to the coconut. It was a Bahamian struggling in the water.

Looking around I also noticed, some distance away, a small (20 ft.?) outboard boat going furiously in circles, apparently unmanned.

I was in about 8-9 feet of water outside the channel and could see the coral heads around me, making any approach to the man in the water challenging. I immediately issued a Mayday, describing my location, the boat going in circles, and at least one person in the water. I wanted help and I wanted it NOW!

Standing on the bow I directed my wife to edge us closer to the swimmer where I heaved a cockpit float cushion with all my might and got it within ten feet of him. He made it to the cushion and I started to edge in to the shallower water. Running aground or hitting the coral were very real concerns. I eventually heaved the Lifesling to him, we hauled him to the boat and pulled him in over the stern. He was thoroughly exhausted. He told me he was alone on the boat and had fallen off. We gave him a towel and some water and waited for the Mounties to arrive.

Eventually some locals arrived and they managed to corral the boat. Everything worked out for the good, and we had a story to share when we made the next landfall.

I will say that I have never felt so "amped up" as I was during all this and I was relieved that we were successful in saving this man. I am also glad that we had practiced man overboard procedures, though they were primarily aimed at my wife recovering me from the water. In hindsight, we acted efficiently and responsibly - thank God.

The biggest revelation for me was how tiny someone looks in the water at a distance. If I hadn't glanced back the second time, he likely would have been lost. Also, the Lifesling works as advertised.

I have absolutely no qualms issuing a call for help when needed.

I have reviewed this with my wife to compare recollections. She recalls seeing the man raise both hands at one point, but other than that we are in agreement. I do not recall exactly when I gave her the helm and went forward, but I suspect it was after I issued the Mayday. This occurred ten years ago, so some details have become vague.


This also occurred under the best of conditions - good light, moderate seas and two of us to manage the rescue.


I believe the reason the forum member asked me to repost this is the adrenalin factor. Although we have always practiced MOB drills (and have never lost a cockpit float cushion), having the real thing occur is breathtaking, and not in a good way. I had referred to this as "amped up", but truly it is almost a controlled sense of panic. In my case I was obligated to save a life but at the same time I was concerned that I could wreck the boat and then we all would be in trouble. Hitting an obstruction was a very real possibility.


In the end, I think several worked in our favor.

My wife is competent behind the wheel and we have worked out hand signals (primarily for anchoring) so that we could communicate clearly when I went to the bow.

We have multiple floatation things, close at hand, to throw overboard in an emergency.

An advantage of center cockpit boats is that the higher elevation of the steering position affords better vision than an aft cockpit, especially when threading your way through obstacles or noticing "coconuts".

With practice, when an emergency occurs you can immediately go into action, rather than ponder what steps to take. I was pleased that we did the right things at the right time. I can't always make that claim.

My very real concern, prior to recovering this man, was there might be someone else in the water or still on board the runaway boat. We were too far from the man in the water to communicate until just before getting the Lifesling to him. It was only then that I could ask if there were others in the water or on the boat.

You typically will have only one chance to get it right. On the other hand, my early engineering mentor convinced me that an immediate good solution is almost always better than a delayed great solution. That balance is what each must deal with. When someone is in the water though, little time is left for weighing alternatives.

Think through the steps required and practice the response until second nature.

Be prepared. Be equipped.

I hope this is helpful. I don't claim to be an expert, just one has been there, and done that.


__________________
redsky49 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2015, 13:06   #194
Registered User
 
Prairie Chicken's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Canada or Spain
Boat: Jeanneau SO 43 DS
Posts: 1,116
Images: 1
Re: MOB Procedures

Quote:
an immediate good solution is almost always better than a delayed great solution
I like that! And I think it is thoroughly applicable to the discussion at hand.

Thanks for sharing your story.
__________________
Prairie Chicken
><((((>`..`..`...><((((>.
`..`..`...><((((>`..`..` ...><((((>
Prairie Chicken is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2015, 10:10   #195
Senior Cruiser
 
Kenomac's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Somewhere in the Adriatic Sea
Boat: Oyster 53 Cutter
Posts: 8,516
Re: MOB Procedures

Pammymac and I did a long overdue MOB drill today with her at the helm. Only 10 knots of wind, no swell and full sails up jib, staysail and mail.

Definitely.... Do not touch the sails, just bring the boat immediately to a hove to position in order to stop the boat. Drop the Lifesling overboard without taking eyes off the MOB. If the MOB can swim to the boat, just stay put. If having difficulty swimming, immediately steer towards the back winded jib and staysail, start up the motor if in light wind and circle the victim bringing the Lifesling right up to the MOB... Very easy to remember. Takes less than two minutes on a 54 ft boat sailing along at 6 knots. When MOB has the Lifesling, put transmission in neutral, stop the boat. Heave to.

Pam wanted to make a list, but quickly realized that in order to read it, she would need to take her eyes off the MOB.

Much easier to follow just a few well rehearsed actions.

DON'T TOUCH THE SAILS!

Ken
__________________

__________________
Kenomac is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
mob

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Single-handed Docking Procedures sneuman Seamanship & Boat Handling 95 24-06-2013 17:59
Repair Procedures - Fiberglass Hull Blisters Bernie Eskesen Construction, Maintenance & Refit 15 14-10-2011 14:23
MOB Procedures markpj23 Seamanship & Boat Handling 103 06-04-2011 14:48
Immigration Procedures antonk Off Topic Forum 5 28-01-2008 09:40
New docking procedures--Oooops delmarrey The Sailor's Confessional 4 02-07-2005 06:57



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 22:32.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.