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Old 06-06-2015, 11:10   #61
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Re: Medical Marijuana

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Originally Posted by DeepFrz View Post
What an amazing change this would make in your country and probably in ours as well. Think of the court time, prison time and expense it would free up.
Law enforcement has a vested interest in the war on drugs.
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Old 06-06-2015, 11:29   #62
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Re: Medical Marijuana

IF, that bill were to EVER pass. None of the MANY, MANY presidential candidate expect maybe Rand Paul (who won't win) will sign that bill.

Maybe in 5-10 years if more states experiment with legalization and regulation their will be some national change.
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Old 06-06-2015, 11:29   #63
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Re: Medical Marijuana

PS the current congress is in the process of rolling back the modest easing of restrictions on Cuba!
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Old 06-06-2015, 12:15   #64
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Re: Medical Marijuana

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Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
One can't help but wonder (or perhaps I missed the memo) why some pro-pot organization hasn't simply sued the Fed to have pot taken off the Class1 drugs list? (sigh.)
Most likely a motivation issue among the membership.
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Old 06-06-2015, 12:19   #65
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Re: Medical Marijuana

The laws are changing slowly, as they should. The problem is that there are so many old fogeys still in powerful positions. It's a slow process of attrition. I first became aware of this stuff in the 60's, and was swept into the Austin Texas scene in 69. Holy smokes, was that a wake up for an East Texas boy raised by a pack of wild rednecks.

Today, I look back and 4remember reading so many articles over the years detailing that the US, UK, Australian, Canadian, French and a dozen other well funded governments have been trying hard for at least 50 years to find a medical reason to ban the plant. Haven't come up with one yet between the lot of them.

I've lost a number of friends and family to alcohol, and I well know the effects of it myself. It definitely changes one's perspective of reality, and the damage it inflicts upon mankind is well known and documented, yet who here is calling it a dangerous hallucinogen? It drives people to murder. If my ex wife were alive, she'd tell you it can kill you. It killed her.
Ever seen even ONE marijuana user die from it?

As for being impaired, well, that's a bad idea in any case, but I know that when I see another car approaching me head on at 2 in the morning, I'd much rather that driver be stoned than shirtfaced. Directly affects MY odds.

To the original question, I t'ink de best analogy is the one made to firearms. A crew member can walk onto your boat in Vermont with a completely legal pistola. No permit required to own or carry.

Would you want your boat searched in every state along the way to Mexico, and then Mexico? Doesn't matter how YOU feel about firearms. It's all about how THEY feel about them. It's really that simple. The rest is drama.
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Old 06-06-2015, 12:29   #66
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Re: Medical Marijuana

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Ever seen even ONE marijuana user die from it? .
Yes, my good friend Mike's older brother Steve. I knew him well. He was also the same guy who ground the original mirror for the Hubble telescope.... You know, the one that required a 1 billion dollar corrective lens after it was already in orbit. Steve was so pround of his work on that mirror, I guess the NASA scientists didn't know he was a heavy user. He died of cancer related to pot smoking at age 50.

There are more carcinogens in pot than in tobacco.

I remember Steve giving us the tour of the grinding facility and explaining what the Hubble was going to be. That mirror was massive, hard to believe something that size was being shot into orbit.
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Old 06-06-2015, 12:59   #67
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Re: Medical Marijuana

"none of the candidates would sign it"
Dunno, I think Bernie Saunders would. I've been aware of him for the past decade or so and while I haven't paid enough attention to his whole mindset...the guy often has surprisingly sensible things to say and doesn't give a damn who disagrees with him.
Of course, until he combs his hair he may not impress the voters. But that's "Uncle Bernie". Voters in his home state of Vermont have kept re-electing him.


"Law enforcement has a vested interest in the war on drugs. "
When the Yippies and radical left groups in the 70's said that, they got poo-poo'd as conspiracy theorists. But as they said, the only proven gain from criminalizing drugs, was that it increased crime and increased thefts to pay for high drug prices (way beyond pot) and by increasing crime, you forced people to work longer to buy new stuff, which was good for the economy since more new stuff had to be made and sold. And, those voters would be too busy to really pay attention to politics.


And then when Milton Freidman, Nobel prize winner and chair of economics at U Chicago's prestigious School of Business said the same thing on Charlie Rose's show some 25 years ago...a few more people paid attention. (The late) Freidman was never considered a radical, or a nutjob, even by those who disagreed with him.


Kinda like our not-quite-an-embargo on Cuba. After 50 years of seeing it doesn't work...What Einstein said about the definition of insanity. Do the same thing over and over again, and expecting a different result?
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Old 06-06-2015, 13:01   #68
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Re: Medical Marijuana

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Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
Yes, my good friend Mike's older brother Steve. I knew him well. He was also the same guy who ground the original mirror for the Hubble telescope.... You know, the one that required a 1 billion dollar corrective lens after it was already in orbit.
So was Steve's altered state in any way responsible for the error in the mirror? As I recall the grinding was done to specs but the specs were calculated incorrectly due to using the wrong focal length or not taking into account a secondary lens or something like that.



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He died of cancer related to pot smoking at age 50.

There are more carcinogens in pot than in tobacco.
Have not heard of any research on the carcinogens in pot vs tobacco but without a doubt, intentionally putting smoke of any kind into your lungs is not healthy. The combustion byproducts of anything: tobacco, pot, firewood, etc will contain all sorts of tars, CO and who knows what else.

I did read one article that indicated smoking tobacco had one serious drawback not present in pot smoking. That is nicotine paralyzes the cilia in the lungs which reduces the lungs' natural cleansing abilities where pot is an expectorant and causes the user to cough out at least some of the pollutants.

Bottom line, no intoxicant is healthy or good for you. Some are just worse than others and some are more socially acceptable than others (which of course differs according to the local culture).

Reports from my wife who is a social worker and does family counseling and my daughter who is an ER doctor, the most common drug with the biggest social impact is alcohol. Drunks in the ER are by far the biggest pain. Other problems like heroin or PCP overdoses can be more traumatic on average but the number of cases is a fraction of the alcohol related cases although heroin overdoses are growing.

Of course, by far the drug that kills the most people in the world every year is tobacco.
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Old 06-06-2015, 13:14   #69
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Re: Medical Marijuana

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Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
"none of the candidates would sign it"
Dunno, I think Bernie Saunders would. I've been aware of him for the past decade or so and while I haven't paid enough attention to his whole mindset...the guy often has surprisingly sensible things to say and doesn't give a damn who disagrees with him.
Of course, until he combs his hair he may not impress the voters. But that's "Uncle Bernie". Voters in his home state of Vermont have kept re-electing him.


"Law enforcement has a vested interest in the war on drugs. "
When the Yippies and radical left groups in the 70's said that, they got poo-poo'd as conspiracy theorists. But as they said, the only proven gain from criminalizing drugs, was that it increased crime and increased thefts to pay for high drug prices (way beyond pot) and by increasing crime, you forced people to work longer to buy new stuff, which was good for the economy since more new stuff had to be made and sold. And, those voters would be too busy to really pay attention to politics.


And then when Milton Freidman, Nobel prize winner and chair of economics at U Chicago's prestigious School of Business said the same thing on Charlie Rose's show some 25 years ago...a few more people paid attention. (The late) Freidman was never considered a radical, or a nutjob, even by those who disagreed with him.


Kinda like our not-quite-an-embargo on Cuba. After 50 years of seeing it doesn't work...What Einstein said about the definition of insanity. Do the same thing over and over again, and expecting a different result?
First heard this point of view from a (conservative) poly sci prof many years ago.

Before alcohol prohibition the mafia was a small time racket, mostly doing gambling, protection and petty theft in Italian neighborhoods in NY and Chicago. Prohibition turned the mafia into a global, wealthy, criminal enterprise. Meanwhile alcohol was freely available to anyone that wanted it. Sometimes it was cut with methanol and made you go blind but hey, you were doing something illegal.

Now drug prohibition has created ultra violent cartels in Colombia, Mexico and elsewhere that have billions of dollars in assets and enough power and influence to challenge the legitimate governments and the military. Meanwhile any school kid can buy pot and even coke or heroin and according to some reports, more easily than buying alcohol.

So the "war on drugs" has failed to even slightly reduce the supply and access to drugs, it has cost the country billions if not trillions of dollars and has sent thousands of otherwise innocent people to jail or seriously impacted their future due to the arrest record. It has driven up the price of drugs so addicts have to break into your house and mine to steal to support their habits. Also drugs are adulterated with all sorts of garbage and purity varies dramatically leading to deaths and overdoses.

Sounds like a failed policy to me.
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Old 06-06-2015, 13:42   #70
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Re: Medical Marijuana

how can you know that cancer was related to pot smoking in one single instance? How do you know he didn't inhale glass particles while grinding lenses? Or what else he might have inhaled over the years? Complete non-smokers die from lung cancer every year?

My ex definitely died from alcohol. Compete liver failure, and her kidneys were failing as well. She also had wet brain, and would have been a burden if she'd lived. There's absolutely No doubt about it, either. Alcoholism was listed by attending physician as cause of death.

I just did a google on "Alcohol related deaths in the USA in 2014" and read "One in 10 deaths among working-age adults aged 20–64 years is due to excessive alcohol use."
http://www.cdc.gov/features/alcohol-deaths/

10% of deaths last year in the US involved alcohol. This doesn't even address how many lives are adversely affected but not terminated. How much domestic violence injuries and incarceration. How many hours of ER and ambulance time. How many children growing up with severe psychological trauma issues. There's really no comparison from a social impact angle.
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Old 06-06-2015, 14:07   #71
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Re: Medical Marijuana

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how can you know that cancer was related to pot smoking in one single instance? How do you know he didn't inhale glass particles while grinding lenses? Or what else he might have inhaled over the years? Complete non-smokers die from lung cancer every year?

My ex definitely died from alcohol. Compete liver failure, and her kidneys were failing as well. She also had wet brain, and would have been a burden if she'd lived. There's absolutely No doubt about it, either. Alcoholism was listed by attending physician as cause of death.

I just did a google on "Alcohol related deaths in the USA in 2014" and read "One in 10 deaths among working-age adults aged 20–64 years is due to excessive alcohol use."
Alcohol Deaths | Features | CDC

10% of deaths last year in the US involved alcohol. This doesn't even address how many lives are adversely affected but not terminated. How much domestic violence injuries and incarceration. How many hours of ER and ambulance time. How many children growing up with severe psychological trauma issues. There's really no comparison from a social impact angle.
Your original post stated, "Ever seen even ONE marijuana user die from it?"

I named one. What do you want me to do now? Steve died 17 years ago, should I ask his family to dig him up for an autopsy... Just to please you?
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Old 06-06-2015, 14:20   #72
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Re: Medical Marijuana

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Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
Your original post stated, "Ever seen even ONE marijuana user die from it?"

I named one. What do you want me to do now? Steve died 17 years ago, should I ask his family to dig him up for an autopsy... Just to please you?

Ken, that seems to be a tad out of line. I believe Canibul had a reasonably good point(s). Cause & effect kinda thing. If you don't know for sure, it could be a "contributing" factor, but not necessarily THE only cause.

Canibul, if you can do that research on cigarettes, is there similar data for mj? I'm guessing if there was, then the anti-mj gurus would be trumpeting that far & wide. I've never heard of anything like that though.
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Old 07-06-2015, 06:51   #73
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Re: Medical Marijuana

Well, here is another fatality related at least tangentially to marijuana. Personally, I don't think marijuana use is a big deal and definitely less of a problem than alcohol abuse. Legalizing it would solve more problems than it would create. OTOH, I know the parents of this kid (who is now rotting in jail) and they wonder whether he would have made the same decisions on the fateful night described below if he hadn't been smoking pot (and drinking alcohol.) Then he decided to use some LSD, which led to driving his car impaired, which led to...

Appeals court upholds conviction for fatal wreck - Crime - The Daily News, Jacksonville

Does anyone that has actually tried marijuana really believe that marijuana doesn't impair your senses? I wouldn't want to try to defend someone that was in an accident with a boat and was found to have significant levels of THC on a drug screen.

Most people don't know it, but Carteret County was at one time the biggest marijuana smuggling entry point on the east coast. There is an interesting book about the topic, Sea of Greed. The local arrests led to the downfall of Noriega.

Another great book about the War on Drugs is http://www.amazon.com/Nogales-Memoir.../dp/0595688047. The guy in the book is a local scuba diver and the descriptions of what he endured after being caught up in the drug war while vacationing are ghastly. For example, our own DEA agents pistol whipped him during interrogations in Mexico.
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Old 07-06-2015, 07:32   #74
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Re: Medical Marijuana

There are lots of reasons not to have this person aboard not the least of which is having a stoned watchstander puts your crew and boat at risk.


As for the legal question: Just listen to all the controversy in this thread. Do you really want to have this debate with some LEO? It'll ruin more than your day.


Also, considering the CG zero-tolerance policy -- all it takes is a drug sniffing dog and few grains left behind from your medical-user, and you could lose your boat at a later date.


I wouldn't risk it.
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Old 07-06-2015, 07:54   #75
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Re: Medical Marijuana

You're all assuming the guy uses green leafy stuff that he smokes.

You may be way behind the current state of medical THC. It is sold as a white powder in gelatin capsules, of a specificed composition and dosage. I'm not saying this guy carries his THC in capsules, just don't assume all marijuana is in the form of plant material any more. It's fat and alcohol soluable, and being used in all kinds of cooking these days. No lung damage required any more.

I know someone in Boulder CO who buys a version in capsule form that works for migraine headaches, and he gets no buzz from it whatsoever. It's something like 5 or 10 milligrams of a specific strain.

And for the record, I don't smoke anything, nor do I drink solvents. and the country I live in does not allow cannibis in any form.
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