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Old 17-04-2013, 04:56   #121
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pirate Re: Mass Robbery in St. Lucia

Actually.... central heating and indoor plumbing were brought to Europe from Asia by Alexander's generals... we didn't really paint ourselves blue back then.. we were just flippin freezing...
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Old 17-04-2013, 04:57   #122
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Re: Mass Robbery in St. Lucia

Funny interpretation of incentive Dave. Never said they don't want to work, just means they want some reward for it, be it satisfaction of work done, financial reward, blessing your family, earning a holiday, ability provide warm, food or shelter.
Given the incentives to work poverty will diminish, take them away and one becomes disheartened and disillusioned and the economy fails.
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Old 17-04-2013, 05:02   #123
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Dave

We can agree a long way down this road. But Dumnmad has a point, albeit he has part of it wrong. Lack of incentive doesn't cause poverty. It does cause society to stay at whatever level is required to survive.

case in point - why have most of the technological advances occurred in the northern hemisphere? Because the population there is smarter, whiter, blue-eyed or or or?

Actually it is because of "necessity is the mother of all invention". Cold climates, heavy storms etc etc etc, required humans to perfect building techniques in the far north, to a degree not necessary in areas further south, where the climate was not as adverse.

The same causes were the reason central heating was invented.

Agricultural societies came into being because there was not enough food naturally available for the populace. Think of some of the south sea islands before the coming of the europeans. We tend to idealize these societies because we claim they lived in harmony etc. In reality, they lived in a benign climate where sufficient food was available - ergo no need to expend time/energy on inventing central heating /a/c.

So it is a lack of incentive AND lack of opportunity that causes poverty. Incentive alone doesn't do it.

Poverty is a relative term , if I live on a island with my mates and we all share the same breadfruit , everything is fine, many tribal societies had very loose definitions of " personal possessions". , that was because hoarding tended to disrupt society and cause divisions. If your mate hoarded too many breadfruit , you simply relived him of them " for the greater maintenance of harmony").

The same was true for many years in the Soviet Union

Then along comes the realisation , either by watching satellite TV , or maybe the arrival of rich ( comparatively ) white men in their planes and boats. Now you have the natural tendency to greed , exacerbated by ( I'm now poor) so the coveting of such wealth begins . The south seas are full of such activities and the destruction of the societies that followed.

As to the sources of poverty , you are obviously a fan of Jared Diamond , I have his book on my shelf ( guns, gems , steel) and what you say has a degree of truth.

But poverty isn't food availability , nor is easy food a function of remaining in poverty . Poverty is relative , and when you shove such relativity in people's faces, then the trouble starts.

Today , what we have is a globally connected world , people in " poorer" societies are continuously taunted by things they can never afford. Its rubbed in their faces. And you wonder why this causes anger.

European and other societies are not immune to relative poverty issues , why is the Social welfare systems in many such countries benchmarked against average " industrial wages" , and not merely what is neccessary to keep people alive . The answer : relative poverty. If you let the differences get too great , what happens in St. Lucia , could happen in say London ( oh wait !!)

The solution to relative poverty , however , certainly isn't telling people to " suck it up" or " get a job"

Remember facetiously the Soviet Union collapsed because ordinary people couldn't buy TVs and refrigerators ( even though neither are necessary for a good living ) !

Agricultural societies came into being, for several reasons , food became Wealth, hunting was dangerous, foraging required moving and moving in cold climates is very difficult. It came in " because it was easier " not because of hunger persay.

Necessity isn't necessarily the mother of inventions, Stone Age societies existed alongside Bronze Age, many societies never " discovered" things that they desperately needed.

Dave
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Old 17-04-2013, 05:15   #124
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Funny interpretation of incentive Dave. Never said they don't want to work, just means they want some reward for it, be it satisfaction of work done, financial reward, blessing your family, earning a holiday, ability provide warm, food or shelter.
Given the incentives to work poverty will diminish, take them away and one becomes disheartened and disillusioned and the economy fails.
Not true , because merely working is no guarantee of even been able to sustain yourself. History is replete with examples of terribly hard work but dying of poverty examples.

In order to tackle poverty , you must succeed in raising the standard of living for all participants, and in doing so the West has decide that means the rich subsidise the poorer , which is right and proper. , its essentially the old tribal , no resonance possessions rule in another form. You must temper Darwinism for the sake of a stable society , as its such stability that allows the rich to get richer. The is no real thing as " incentives to work" , people have always " worked"

A cruise ship full of " wealthy " people docking in say the south of France , is very different from one docking in a third world island that happens to have nice scenery. The societal impacts are very very different.

But of course if the cruise operators and by extension the passengers paid south of France costs in docking such ship and all that goes with it, things might be different.

Poverty is relative, that's the issue , not working. Its a wealth differential , not an absolute

"
There’s an old proverb.. I think it’s russian about 2 neighbors. One has a goat and the other does not. He hates his neighbor for having a goat while he goes without. One day he’s blessed by finding a genie who offers to grant him one wish. So obviously you’d think since he admires his neighbors goat so much, he’ll wish for his own, right? Wrong. He wishes that his neighbors goat will die. He wants his neighbor to be as miserable as he is.
"

Therein lies the issue. Not work or poverty
Dave
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Old 17-04-2013, 05:21   #125
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Re: Mass Robbery in St. Lucia

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Poverty is a relative term , if I live on a island with my mates and we all share the same breadfruit , everything is fine, many tribal societies had very loose definitions of " personal possessions". , that was because hoarding tended to disrupt society and cause divisions. If your mate hoarded too many breadfruit , you simply relived him of them " for the greater maintenance of harmony").

The same was true for many years in the Soviet Union

Then along comes the realisation , either by watching satellite TV , or maybe the arrival of rich ( comparatively ) white men in their planes and boats. Now you have the natural tendency to greed , exacerbated by ( I'm now poor) so the coveting of such wealth begins . The south seas are full of such activities and the destruction of the societies that followed.

As to the sources of poverty , you are obviously a fan of Jared Diamond , I have his book on my shelf ( guns, gems , steel) and what you say has a degree of truth.

But poverty isn't food availability , nor is easy food a function of remaining in poverty . Poverty is relative , and when you shove such relativity in people's faces, then the trouble starts.

Today , what we have is a globally connected world , people in " poorer" societies are continuously taunted by things they can never afford. Its rubbed in their faces. And you wonder why this causes anger.

European and other societies are not immune to relative poverty issues , why is the Social welfare systems in many such countries benchmarked against average " industrial wages" , and not merely what is neccessary to keep people alive . The answer : relative poverty. If you let the differences get too great , what happens in St. Lucia , could happen in say London ( oh wait !!)

The solution to relative poverty , however , certainly isn't telling people to " suck it up" or " get a job"

Remember facetiously the Soviet Union collapsed because ordinary people couldn't buy TVs and refrigerators ( even though neither are necessary for a good living ) !

Agricultural societies came into being, for several reasons , food became Wealth, hunting was dangerous, foraging required moving and moving in cold climates is very difficult. It came in " because it was easier " not because of hunger persay.

Necessity isn't necessarily the mother of inventions, Stone Age societies existed alongside Bronze Age, many societies never " discovered" things that they desperately needed.

Dave
Dave,

Necessity is the mother of invention. We haven't invented everything possible yet. why?
1 - we don't need it yet
2- we can't invent it until we've invented something else (refrigerators generally require electricity)

But I agree that poverty is completely relative. A "poverty-stricken" northern european is rich (by european standards) in many parts of Africa. A weathly African might be poverty-stricken by european standards. It all depends on what you consider wealth to be

Remember the Dutch tulip craze? Back a few hundred years ago, it became the craze to measure wealth in the Netherlands by how many and what tip of tulip bulbs you had.

People bought/traded tulip bulbs like mad until the "bubble" finally collapsed.

Did someone say IT bubble here?
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Old 17-04-2013, 05:25   #126
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Re: Mass Robbery in St. Lucia

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just so we are aware of what an expat is:

Websters dictionary

1ex·pa·tri·ate verb \ek-ˈspā-trē-ˌāt\
ex·pa·tri·at·edex·pa·tri·at·ing

Definition of EXPATRIATE

transitive verb
1
: banish, exile
2
: to withdraw (oneself) from residence in or allegiance to one's native country
intransitive verb
: to leave one's native country to live elsewhere; also : to renounce allegiance to one's native country
— ex·pa·tri·ate noun
— ex·pa·tri·a·tion noun


To be an expat - you not only have to leave - you have to renounce allegiance to your country.

OH BOY!! so every white American's forebears were ex-pats because they crossed-over voluntarily, and presumably renounced their original citizenship, while every black person's forebears came involuntarily, and DID NOT renounce their national allegiance.

Very interesting Hmmmm!!
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Old 17-04-2013, 05:35   #127
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OH BOY!! so every white American's forebears were ex-pats because they crossed-over voluntarily, and presumably renounced their original citizenship, while every black person's forebears came involuntarily, and DID NOT renounce their national allegiance.

Very interesting Hmmmm!!
Hence the cry through the shanty towns...
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Old 17-04-2013, 06:12   #128
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Re: Mass Robbery in St. Lucia

The real solution is to do away with currency. Currency is no more than an agreed upon idea that a piece of paper or metal has a certain value. If we all agree that currency is worthless, then no more rich/poor people. To help prevent the onset of pollution due to all the people throwing their money away, you can send it to me, and I will dispose of it properly at no cost to you!
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Old 17-04-2013, 06:19   #129
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Re: Mass Robbery in St. Lucia

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I have to admire the naiveté of that ,

Why do we have extensive Social welfare systems, partly because we want to defuse a potential underclass that could turn against us.

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Old 17-04-2013, 06:25   #130
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Re: Mass Robbery in St. Lucia

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Hence the cry through the shanty towns...
"Mon..... dere's Lobsters on South Beach...."
Boaty,--I swear you are descended from Billy Shake speare.
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Old 17-04-2013, 06:49   #131
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Re: Mass Robbery in St. Lucia

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Try talking with them over a nice dinner, that's what cruising is all about... meeting people, spending time with them, getting to know them through pleasant conversation... sharing ideas with people from all around the world.

Get off your computer once in a while.
Yes, and if you're light on actual ideas, you could always attack the person with whom you're conversing on a personal level with baseless and incorrect assumptions.

I have to chuckle when someone tells me to get of my computer -- from THEIR computer!

Feel free to get back to telling us how the average St Lucian could go on cruises and join your conversation, if only they would apply themselves.
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Old 17-04-2013, 07:32   #132
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Re: Mass Robbery in St. Lucia

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...But poverty isn't food availability , nor is easy food a function of remaining in poverty . Poverty is relative , and when you shove such relativity in people's faces, then the trouble starts.

There is also absolute poverty, which is the amount the U.N. has determined as basic sustenance, and is defined as $1.25 per day. About a billion people on this planet (out of 7 billion) meet THAT definition.

This is different than the relative poverty level ($22,000) set by social organizations in Europe and the U.S., which also believe that cable TV and cell phones should be provided as a basic right.
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Old 17-04-2013, 07:34   #133
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Re: Mass Robbery in St. Lucia

I think this thread has pretty much run it's absurd course... Just a few high horse socialists remaining, discussing ways to solve all the worlds poverty issues by tearing down capitalism and the USA in particular... Yacht owners riddled with white guilt. Ironic & laughable.
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Old 17-04-2013, 07:36   #134
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Re: Mass Robbery in St. Lucia

Even in the US, most people see our "yachts" (many only worth a fraction of the value of the home of the person looking at us) and think we are rich.

Imagine what people in third world countries think.
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Old 17-04-2013, 07:46   #135
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Re: Mass Robbery in St. Lucia

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I think this thread has pretty much run it's absurd course... Just a few high horse socialists remaining, discussing ways to solve all the worlds poverty issues by tearing down capitalism and the USA in particular... Yacht owners riddled with white guilt. Ironic & laughable.
If we on a high horse, are you on a donkey?

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