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Old 15-04-2013, 10:50   #16
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Re: Mass Robbery in St. Lucia

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Originally Posted by mbianka View Post
My gal and I where on a Wind Star Cruise that stopped in St. Lucia many years back.
We spent our honeymoon on St. Lucia back in 1996 and found the people to be very pleasant and welcoming. There were plenty of opportunities for the locals to take advantage of us since we don't stay on the path beaten down by tourists.

Now that I think about it, our appearance probably doesn't suggest any measure of wealth.
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Old 15-04-2013, 11:10   #17
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Re: Mass Robbery in St. Lucia

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This is what happens when poverty meets wealth.
Except for all the cases when then that's not true at all.
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Old 15-04-2013, 11:12   #18
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Re: Mass Robbery in St. Lucia

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Except for all the cases when then that's not true at all.
St. Lucia is one of those cases.

Hence, the gated resorts.
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Old 15-04-2013, 11:26   #19
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I wonder at the comment that most "americans" are wealthy and dont know it while travelling. As an expat living in europe for almost 8 years and an expat generally for over a decade not including just plain long term cruising and travel for over 20 years i can assure you that anyone who lives in a "relatively wealthy" country and does not travel to "poor countries" does not internalize their wealth position on the global scale, regardless of the flag they were born under.

This is an issue of perceived wealth and poverty and one of global scale - you diminish the issue by casting dispersions on a single country.

That said, lets act proactively and prevent this thread from descending into politics. We all know how that will end up.
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Old 15-04-2013, 11:29   #20
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Re: Mass Robbery in St. Lucia

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Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3 View Post
What's "over rich"? Americans are known throughout the world as being wealthy relative to the rest of the world, and being too naive to realize it.

Those nice, hard working people enjoy a standard of living that is higher than most of the world's population. They're on a cruise, but don't feel wealthy.

They don't "deserve" to be robbed, but your comment shows a need of better awareness of their wealth relative to the rest of the world. Google "core and periphery".
I went on a cruise liner, once, and most of the passengers seemed at best middle class, so certainly not wealthy......... by US standards.

But compared to most of the rest of the world yes wealthy. They might not feel wealthy at home but compared to someone who lives hand to mouth and is never certain where the next meal will come from, very wealthy.

Had this discussion a couple of years ago with a cruiser that was planning to cruise the Caribbean and was somewhat critical of those with "big fancy boats". He was going in his 30' older boat so he would not be seen as the rich American. Guess what, in a place like St Lucia anyone that owns any kind of boat is seen as wealthy. Just some are wealthier than others.
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Old 15-04-2013, 12:06   #21
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Re: Mass Robbery in St. Lucia

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I wonder at the comment that most "americans" are wealthy and dont know it while travelling. As an expat living in europe for almost 8 years and an expat generally for over a decade not including just plain long term cruising and travel for over 20 years i can assure you that anyone who lives in a "relatively wealthy" country and does not travel to "poor countries" does not internalize their wealth position on the global scale, regardless of the flag they were born under.

This is an issue of perceived wealth and poverty and one of global scale - you diminish the issue by casting dispersions on a single country.

That said, lets act proactively and prevent this thread from descending into politics. We all know how that will end up.
So what you're saying is that yes, people who live in wealthy countries tend to have a different perspective of wealth compared to the other 4/5ths of the the planet, but that you strongly object to the characterization of Americans as having this perspective?

The point of the comment wasn't to pick on Americans, but to point out the disparity of perspectives, in response to the comment that people on cruise ships aren't "wealthy".

Thanks for agreeing.
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Old 15-04-2013, 12:34   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3 View Post
The point of the comment wasn't to pick on Americans, but to point out the disparity of perspectives, in response to the comment that people on cruise ships aren't "wealthy".

Thanks for agreeing.
Your reply is disingenuous at best. Your post included the following:

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Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3 View Post
What's "over rich"? Americans are known throughout the world as being wealthy relative to the rest of the world, and being too naive to realize it.
Notice how you didnt say "Western World" - but specified Americans and the well worn cliches associated with them. Then when called on it you claim you weren't targeting a single group.

No, I didnt agree with you. I rebutted your central premise and direct pejorative attack on a single group and clarified it with a less titillating but more accurate statement regarding the differences between wealthy and poor nations - especially the part about perception which you clearly missed as many nations that are perceived poor by other nations do not have that same self perception.

Please do not assume that we agree or that you speak for me as we clearly have different views.

edit: Now that I have gotten my snottiness out of the way - yes, a core issue here is the disparity of wealth between the flood fo 5000 or so people off a cruise ship and the locals - but it is not flag dependent
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Old 15-04-2013, 12:50   #23
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Re: Mass Robbery in St. Lucia

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Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3 View Post
St. Lucia is one of those cases.

Hence, the gated resorts.
Then it's a localized problem. We've been staying near a town here in Mexico that is dirt poor by American standards and have been treated with nothing but respect and warmth. I know there are places where that is not the way things work, but to make a blanket statement that "when rich meets poor bad things happen" is not accurate.
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Old 15-04-2013, 12:51   #24
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Re: Mass Robbery in St. Lucia

Regarding the term "expat", a friend of mine the other day told me:

"Only white people are expats. We call brown people immigrants when they do the same."
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Old 15-04-2013, 13:32   #25
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Re: Mass Robbery in St. Lucia

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Originally Posted by foolishsailor View Post
Your reply is disingenuous at best. Your post included the following:



Notice how you didnt say "Western World" - but specified Americans and the well worn cliches associated with them. Then when called on it you claim you weren't targeting a single group.

No, I most certainly didnt agree with you. I rebutted your central premise and direct pejorative attack on a single group and clarified it with a less titillating but more accurate statement regarding the differences between wealthy and poor nations - especially the part about perception which you clearly missed as many nations that are perceived poor by other nations do not have that same self perception.

Please do not assume that we agree or that you speak for me as we clearly have different views.

edit: Now that I have gotten my snottiness out of the way - yes, a core issue here is the disparity of wealth between the flood fo 5000 or so people off a cruise ship and the locals - but it is not flag dependent

I wasn't attacking Americans, but pointing out the lack of perspective that Americans tend to have on wealth. What they see as "middle class", much of the world sees as wealthy. It's my opinion, I have a right to it, and if you want to argue that you'll surely lose that argument.

In fact, you admitted as much in BOTH of your responses in this thread.

I'm not saying that Americans are the ONLY people who have a slanted perspective on wealth relative to the rest of the world, but Americans do generally suffer from a relative lack of perspective when it comes to wealth.

You can blast my post all you want, but it will still be right.

You get extra points if you agree with my general point about the disparity of perspective on wealth a third time, which will no doubt be written with the sharpness and clarity of your other two responses.

Try and use words like 'disingenuous' and 'pejorative', as name-calling tends to help with the truthiness of your response.
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Old 15-04-2013, 13:41   #26
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Re: Mass Robbery in St. Lucia

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Then it's a localized problem. We've been staying near a town here in Mexico that is dirt poor by American standards and have been treated with nothing but respect and warmth. I know there are places where that is not the way things work, but to make a blanket statement that "when rich meets poor bad things happen" is not accurate.
The actual quote was "this is what happens when poverty meets wealth", and that often is the case.

You're right, it's not a universal rule.

When I visited St. Lucia, I was "outside the gates", but I never felt in danger. It's a stunningly beautiful island, and like most places, the vast majority of the people there are kind and friendly. Their tourist industry is important, and they work very hard to protect it and the people visiting - hence the gated resorts. But there is a huge contrast between the resorts and the local towns.
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Old 15-04-2013, 14:06   #27
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Re: Mass Robbery in St. Lucia

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Originally Posted by mbianka View Post
My gal and I where on a Wind Star Cruise that stopped in St. Lucia many years back. We rented a car and attempted just to drive around the island. We got shaken down at every turn by "guides". I'd never go back with my boat after that experience and that was decades ago. Sounds like things have gotten worse.
I did the same, but I flew in. Drove all around the island. Enjoyed paying just $3 EC for a Roti and a coke. Met one disreputable guy at the gardens who tried to sell me some evil smelling clay, but I declined. Had a great time.
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Old 15-04-2013, 14:08   #28
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Re: Mass Robbery in St. Lucia

It isn't nationality or income disparity, it is the fact that tourists arrive with cash in their pockets. Thieves could care less about anything else. There are plenty in the US who steal from poor people all the time, generally these are called fast food chains and payday loan services, but I digress.

Just wait until someone takes a whole cruise ship hostage at sea and demands ransom or they sink the boat.
The ships have gotten so large they are really dangerous, why anyone would pay to go on them is hard to understand.
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Old 15-04-2013, 14:14   #29
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Re: Mass Robbery in St. Lucia

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But, are you saying that people who are "over rich" should be targets of violence from those who are not? Do they not deserve the right of dignity and freedom from assault?
No and No.

No, of course they should not be targets of violence - not unless they refuse to meet the demands of the freemarket, then it's game on. The strong take from the weak, that's how it is, always has been and always will be. Being on the short end of the freemarket can come as a surprise to some, especially those that don't realise that money can buy a spot higher up the food chain but simply having any doesn't automatically give you that spot. A dollar (or Euro) note does not work like a Juju charm.......errrr, actually it does!

No, they have no rights (to dignity, freedom or to anything else) - "rights" are what people give to each other on a reciprocal basis. If "you" are part of an economic system (even though as a small and insignificant part) that is based around keeping others with less than "you", then gotta accept that as you ain't dishing out the right to dignity and freedom you can't expect it to be offered to you.

And yes, I am a capitalist .
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Old 15-04-2013, 14:24   #30
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Re: Mass Robbery in St. Lucia

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No and No.

No, of course they should not be targets of violence - not unless they refuse to meet the demands of the freemarket, then it's game on. The strong take from the weak, that's how it is, always has been and always will be. Being on the short end of the freemarket can come as a surprise to some, especially those that don't realise that money can buy a spot higher up the food chain but simply having any doesn't automatically give you that spot. A dollar (or Euro) note does not work like a Juju charm.......errrr, actually it does!

No, they have no rights (to dignity, freedom or to anything else) - "rights" are what people give to each other on a reciprocal basis. If "you" are part of an economic system (even though as a small and insignificant part) that is based around keeping others with less than "you", then gotta accept that as you ain't dishing out the right to dignity and freedom you can't expect it to be offered to you.

And yes, I am a capitalist .
Refreshingly honest.
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