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Old 24-10-2012, 16:29   #31
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Re: Man Overboard

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Originally Posted by ozskipper View Post
...
As a former instructor and commercial sailor, I used to teach to the old 80% of MOBs were found with their fly open rule. ...
I think that old adage is "urban legend". I have never encountered a single verifiable case of "fly open" MOB either. Nor, have I ever found it mentioned in the statistics (not that I've looked very hard) of any credible entity like the USCG.
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Old 24-10-2012, 16:38   #32
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Re: Man Overboard

Do think the video I posted was a ruse? What more verification do you need. Do you think it was scripted?
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Old 24-10-2012, 17:04   #33
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Re: Man Overboard

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Originally Posted by jeremiason View Post
About 15 years ago I experienced my only MOB or what I refer to Ex-WOB (Ex-Wife Overboard) in our marina.

My ex-wife (nothing to do with this story), me and several guests had just completed a day sail on the San Francisco Bay and were returning to the marina. Because the summers winds tend to be 20-25 mph with lots of fetch, we sailed behind the breakwater and into the marina main channel to douse the main.

I started my 180 degree turn into the wind while my ex stood at the mast waiting to flake the sail. As we turned, the sail luffed and my ex started walking down the lee side of the boom thinking we were head to wind.

We weren't and the wind caught the main again. The boom crossed over and caught the ex in the stomach and launched her about ten feet into the air. She hit the water with a pop as her auto-PFD inflated perfectly.

Since I still had the main up I started to do a figure eight recovery when I realized I didn't have the sea room in the narrow channel surrounded by docks

So I headed into the wind and gave my passengers directions to lower the main. In their panic of seeing the ex go into the water they had reverted to their primary language of German and were not unerstanding my directions in English.

I decided to run the haylard and just drop the main on deck and then motor back to the ex for recovery. I opened the rope clutch and the main fell about haf way down before the slack halyard caught in the spreader and the main sail stopped.

So now I have my ex in the water, two people screaming in German and of course a very badly reefed main in 20 knots of wind.

At tht point to old crusty sea salts on a motor yacht tied to one of the near by docks, shake their heaads, walk out on their transom and pull the ex from the water.

I was eventually able to get the sail free and secured. I motored over to the dock with my head down and picked up the ex, Off course the salty sea dogs had to critique my MOB exercise, which further humiliated me.

OK the point of this story, which is all true, is:

We did MOBs drills almost evertime we went out in those days. We talked about what we would do when someone went overboard and had it all worked out, we thought!

The problem became what to do when your partner, who is responsible for parts of the MOB drill you have practiced over and over is in the water, the passengers on board are too panicked to assist with anything and then old Murphy appears and grabs your halyard...

Just remember to have more than one plan and be adaptive, because things will go wrong...
Hi Tom. Your story, scary as it was (although potentially financially rewardingin-lol). Is kinda what I am talking about and the why I started the thread. In my own experience more people go overboard from other incidents, than from taking a pee over the side. And yet it appears to be a major focus point with a lot of training centers.

My Ex-wife was similarly launched many years ago (somewhere in the 80s) ,when we were crewing someone elses boat. The Skipper uttered 'gybing' without warning. Note that I said "uttered". She turned to say "what?" . Then, Thunk off she goes.

Alas, my story was not financially rewarding either. I had been drinking. Had I not, I may have second guessed my decision to dive in an save her- one of the dangers of alcohol and water I guess ;-)
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Old 24-10-2012, 17:13   #34
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Re: Man Overboard

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Originally Posted by Chrisgo View Post
Do think the video I posted was a ruse? What more verification do you need. Do you think it was scripted?
You will notice that in my initial post, I mentioned sailing boats- not stink boats. Also at no time do I say it doesnt happen. My point is that the figures dont match the reality.

Based on the comments in this thread and actual experiences the numbers dont add up. I am truly waiting for half a dozen people to chime in and say "yes, it happened to me". But at this point it hasnt happened.

My purpose of this thread is to raise the other dangers that create an MOB. And get people to think less about peeing overboard and more about other dangers on a sailboat like..

Tenders
Booms
Rope Rolling
Booze
Backwinded headsails.
Carrying heavy weights
Fools wearing backpacks
Fishing whilst underweigh
The list goes on...
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Old 24-10-2012, 17:15   #35
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One thought I am having is first chuck floatie things (non human floatie things)in the water near the mob. My son stepped off the boat onto a rotten plank wham right in the water he went. Don't remember how I got him out. No idea. Second thought docks are bad. Know if a few dockside deaths. Last thought I went turtle in a dink. Before the days of inflatables. I went over fully laden in winter garb and boots. I really thought it was my last thought. Everything was instantly heavy. Exactly how I righted the dink and got back to the dock is beyond me. No recollection. I remember it was cold. And the marina clerk was puzzled but asked no questions as I bought a new oar lock and dripped water all over the check. .
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Old 24-10-2012, 17:18   #36
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Re: Man Overboard

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I have 2 experiences of associates in 40 years of going over the side into the piss so to speak.
One was off Cairns he was drunk and was found without shorts dead, the other was in Gladstone on a calm night and he was thankfully picked up an hour later by his skipper who wondered where he went.
Two knocked off boat by boom in club races, two stepped where they shouldn't have.
So in 40 years that's the lot........Cheers Frank
Thanks Frank, thats the type of observations I was hoping to get with this thread. Rather than chest beating about one own boat rules. Its highly likely, that as i alluded to, that the numbers dont add up.

I will repeat myself before I get flamed, not that it doesn't happen. Just that the numbers are most likely inconsistent with the facts.

Very sad about the Guy in Cairns. Do you know the circumstances?
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Old 24-10-2012, 17:56   #37
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Re: Man Overboard

Man Overboard Story

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Old 24-10-2012, 18:46   #38
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Re: Man Overboard

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Originally Posted by sabray View Post
One thought I am having is first chuck floatie things (non human floatie things)in the water near the mob. My son stepped off the boat onto a rotten plank wham right in the water he went. Don't remember how I got him out. No idea. Second thought docks are bad. Know if a few dockside deaths. Last thought I went turtle in a dink. Before the days of inflatables. I went over fully laden in winter garb and boots. I really thought it was my last thought. Everything was instantly heavy. Exactly how I righted the dink and got back to the dock is beyond me. No recollection. I remember it was cold. And the marina clerk was puzzled but asked no questions as I bought a new oar lock and dripped water all over the check. .

I view getting on and off my boat as the most dangerous thing I do. It's so easy to not be paying full attention while doing it.
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Old 24-10-2012, 18:57   #39
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Re: Man Overboard

When I discount news reports of distant events and consider only the loss of life among those in my immediate sailing community I am aware of six deaths over the forty years of my liveaboard cruising. Three lost their lives when running aground at an inlet at night and it was presumed that they attemped to swim to shore. Two died falling from the docks in their marina at night,-both alcohol related. And the last run down by a tug and barge anchored at night wihout an anchor light.
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Old 24-10-2012, 19:01   #40
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Re: Man Overboard

Thanks for opening the kimono and sharing your real life story.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeremiason View Post

I started my 180 degree turn into the wind while my ex stood at the mast waiting to flake the sail. As we turned, the sail luffed and my ex started walking down the lee side of the boom thinking we were head to wind.
We weren't and the wind caught the main again. The boom crossed over and caught the ex in the stomach and launched her about ten feet into the air.
Even head to wind we secure the boom on centerline before dropping. But it is easy to see how this can happen.

I think the peeing story holds truth but I think the boom is the number one risk. The only 2 MOBs I have seen were boom related.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeremiason View Post

We did MOBs drills almost evertime we went out in those days. We talked about what we would do when someone went overboard and had it all worked out, we thought!

The problem became what to do when your partner, who is responsible for parts of the MOB drill you have practiced over and over is in the water, the passengers on board are too panicked to assist with anything and then old Murphy appears and grabs your halyard...

Just remember to have more than one plan and be adaptive, because things will go wrong...
We also used to do MOB drills.

I have posted this before but one time when the crew was semi relaxing I threw the ring over and shouted, "Skipper overboard" released the tiller and sat down.

Long story short, due to wind and current the ring went under a barge tow and I thanked the crew for killing me.

Make sure MOB drills are as realistic as possible.
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Old 25-10-2012, 04:06   #41
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Re: Man Overboard

In Germany the Federal Bureau of Maritime Casualty Investigation is publishing a detailed report on each serious incident involving a vessel under German flag, commercial or pleasure, and/or an incident happening in German waters. This is interesting reading, but everything is in German.
If somebody understands the language, here is the link.
BSU Unfallberichte
I went through the MOB related reports on sailing vessels over the last 10 years and didn't find a single one, confirming the peeing story.

The main reasons for a MOB situation with deadly outcome were:
- in heavy weather fell overboard from cockpit, no tethered lifebelt, no PFD
- fell overboard from deck while sorting something out under normal conditions, no tethered lifebelt, no PFD (or one of these two failed)
The other crew members were not able to bring the MOB back on board.

A few single-handed casulties, were alcohol or bad weather was involved.

And two were knocked by the boom over board, during an accidental jibe.
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Old 25-10-2012, 05:10   #42
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Re: Man Overboard

I read the peeing and falling overboard 80% story as having value in being illustrative rather than being 100% correct, the same as the best bilge pump is a frightened man with a bucket or you only step up into a liferaft.

For the MOB simply says to me that you are likely to fall overboard when doing something - and more likely when that something is very familiar .
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Old 25-10-2012, 06:15   #43
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Re: Man Overboard

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Make sure MOB drills are as realistic as possible.
It is just this reason why I voluntarily throw myself into the water when instructing or simply to practice. Hats and other flotsam are good for training purposes but there is nothing like a real person overboard at risk to see what the crew has learned. No one gets pumped about retrieving a hat but they sure do get saucer-eyed when it's a person.

I have seen the cluster of Keystone Cops on deck and have felt safer while in the water. Law of primacy kicks in during high stress. You want to simulate that stress level in order to expose the deficiencies and give talking points useful in further training. Sometimes I have played unconcious.

That bit of MOB inside the basin with restricted manuevering room and the crew speaking German gave me a laugh. I am happy only ego was injured but that was a great lesson. Layers of clusters and still a person in the water.

Too, it is illustrative to see how the crew will reorganize when they are down one. Someone has to take lead and it can be quite telling to see how one steps up to take charge.
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Old 25-10-2012, 07:25   #44
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Re: Man Overboard

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Originally Posted by Richard5 View Post
It is just this reason why I voluntarily throw myself into the water when instructing or simply to practice. Hats and other flotsam are good for training purposes but there is nothing like a real person overboard at risk to see what the crew has learned. No one gets pumped about retrieving a hat but they sure do get saucer-eyed when it's a person.

I have seen the cluster of Keystone Cops on deck and have felt safer while in the water. Law of primacy kicks in during high stress. You want to simulate that stress level in order to expose the deficiencies and give talking points useful in further training. Sometimes I have played unconcious.

That bit of MOB inside the basin with restricted manuevering room and the crew speaking German gave me a laugh. I am happy only ego was injured but that was a great lesson. Layers of clusters and still a person in the water.

Too, it is illustrative to see how the crew will reorganize when they are down one. Someone has to take lead and it can be quite telling to see how one steps up to take charge.
I really wouldn't do that, myself, unless the weather was very calm and a beach within easy swimming distance, or a RIB were standing by with someone to pull me out, if things go pear-shaped . . .

It would kind of defeat the purpose, drowning while teaching people how to save MOB's . . .
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Old 25-10-2012, 07:48   #45
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Re: Man Overboard

MOB drill with an actual human overboard? Maybe a good idea with a smaller sailboat without a prop of any kind. But on a larger vessel, I don't think it's a good idea with an inexperienced, adrenaline pumped up crew doing the Keystone cop drill. I personally wouldn't want to be the volunteer guy in the water about to be run over by a 50,000 pound boat and ground up by a bowthruster or 30 inch stern prop.

Point of information: On a sailboat, it's preferred and safer to recover the MOB with the engine turned off and under sail power alone if possible, in order to eliminate the possibility of tangling line, rope or human in the prop. Or if not possible, the engine needs to be turned off on the final approach to the MOB.
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