Liferaft: Yes or No

[CoastalCowboy]

OK, far be it for me to be the voise of reason and diplomacy (not to mention anyone who knows me would never believe it) but is there really a good justification for the acrimony in this thread. First, the fact that we all are, are planning to be or have been cruisers kinda means we're free spirits who don't go for main stream thinking. Second, independence and individual decision making and planning is kinda the whole idea of whet we do. We can argue this all day long, and neither side is gonna change the opinion of the other. Bottom line, make the dicision you make AND KNOW WHY YOU MADE THAT DECISION. Don't make the decision for anyone else (i.e. make sure anyone that comes on your boat knows whether or not you have one and let them decide whether they want to go without). And lets all respect each other's choice, and the right to make it. After all, if we wanted to be regulated that closely and/or to regulate others that closely we would probably have stayed on shore in the first place.

[sck5]

people seem to be worried about the boat sinking and say they can get in their dinghy fast enough. Maybe sinking is an issue but what scares me is fire. No way I could get the dinghy in the water fast enough.

Hey why take chances? If I want to be suicidal I can always hop out of the raft.

[estarzinger]

My essential point, which I was trying to get at by bringing up the crash pump option, is that I think the OP question should be rephrased. It's not should I get a life raft (in splendid isolation). Rather it should be: with my boat (and her stowage space) and my budget and my skills and my tool what should be my priorities to make the cruise safer? Consider ALL the things you can do to make the cruise safer, and start with those with the biggest bang. It's a prioritization and trade-off process, not an isolated decision. And usually (almost always) I think you can find things that to be done with more bang than a raft.

[sailorboy1]

Originally Posted by estarzinger

My essential point, which I was trying to get at by bringing up the crash pump option, is that I think the OP question should be rephrased. It's not should I get a life raft (in splendid isolation). Rather it should be: with my boat (and her stowage space) and my budget and my skills and my tool what should be my priorities to make the cruise safer? Consider ALL the things you can do to make the cruise safer, and start with those with the biggest bang. It's a prioritization and trade-off process, not an isolated decision. And usually (almost always) I think you can find things that to be done with more bang than a raft.

I wanted to keep the orginal question simple. I put a poll on the thread to collect votes to see where my decision stood in comparison so when the posts got into onto the long reasoning to support someone's answer one could read the poll.

I know why I can made my decision and what plays into it (I have read your reasoning Evans). And I considered the boat systems etc as a whole.

Some of the YES posters have kind of taken the position that if you weren't planning on a life raft that your overall judgement must just be poor. I don't feel my decision of No to the life raft makes me an idiot in itself.

All of this sailing stuff is like most things an exercise in balancing risks.

[AussieGeoff]

Originally Posted by rgscpat

Geoff -- I believe it was the American girl, not the Dutch, who got into trouble.
Abby Sunderland, who had previous trouble on her Open 40 "Wild Eyes", departed South Africa to cross the southern ocean in winter (didn't sound like a good idea), and was rescued from her dismasted boat on June 12, 2010, near the Kerguelen Islands in the vicinity of lat. 40 S.

Ack. My apologies, and you are of course quite correct. I had misremembered. Early onset Alzheimers probably lol.
And no, not a great time to be doing what she tried, she was lucky to get out of that one.

Originally Posted by rgscpat

Laura Dekker on "Guppy" is taking a much more mellow route westbound across the Indian Ocean after having departed Darwin, Australia, and is doing just fine:

16-10-2011
Everything is going well with Gup and me. Every day I write my blog as usual about the things that happen. I will place them in a few weeks on my site.

I'll have to look into that, didn't realise she was finally on her way. I remember there was a huge controversy about her going, but even at her age, I think she knows what she's in for and it appears she has the knowledge to deal with it. I wish her well.

AussieGeoff

[estarzinger]

Originally Posted by Don Lucas

All of this sailing stuff is like most things an exercise in balancing risks.

well said. Rafts are simply one of the very many available risk mitigation tools.

and agree completely that we can each make different but individually sensible decisions about how to judge and balance those risks for ourselves.

[AussieGeoff]

Originally Posted by rebel heart

If you're within 5 miles of shore I'd keep PFD's and a handheld around. Guys are swimming that distance routinely. Kicking on your back in warm water with a PFD wouldn't be crazy if you're in shape for it.

Given a good many cruisers are older couples, I don't know too many that would be in shape to swim anything like five miles, with or without a PFD. There are those that swim a lot more than that and some of them are older, but most people aren't that fit and don't swim that well. Swimming in a PFD is quite tiring too. Add a current of a knot or two...
You might be running hard as you can just to stay in the same place, or even be going backwards...

I'm not sure I would be up to it and I'm still under 60 and reasonably fit. YMMV, but you have to consider worst case as well. What if you get hurt? Maybe burnt trying to put out the fire that forced you to abandon? I doubt swimming any distance in salt water with, say, burns to 10% of your body is something most of us would be up to. You be more likely to go into shock and probably arrest.

Then (around here) there are the big things with teeth... I wouldn't try swimming one mile in lower Spencer Gulf without a shark cage and I'd be pretty wary even up the top end where we are...

Aussie Geoff

[Weyalan]

It is an interesting microcosm of life, right here. The discussion illustrates how diverse a group of people we are. And the important thing to keep in mind is that there is no "right" answer, merely the right course of action for you. I suspect that you would get a similar spectrum of replies if you asked "Liability insurance... yes or no?" or "Replacement insurance... yes or no?". In the end, you weigh up the options and make your choice. IF you can sleep at night, it's probably the right choice.
For what it is worth, I don't take a liferaft for coastal / sheltered waters cruising, but when I have gone offshore I do. (and, fwiw, I would answer "yes" to both insurance questions).

[Capt Phil]

The last two boats I owned both came with life rafts. Up until then never had one but my partner insisted that we get it checked out out before setting off for Mexico. Had the repack done in Ensenada by a couple of Bomberos (Firefighters) north of town. When we joined them for the checkout and repack we found all the instructions and flares written in mandarin. Had a great time drinking beers and setting off all the flares on the beach with the guys, repacked with freezedried food, new flares and cat food.
Our second raft was repacked by Beaufort in Richmond, BC. Good idea to be present at the repack because it familiarizes you with what to expect and you can customize the items you want it to hold. When you need to use it, you don't need any surprises and good practice to pull the inflating lanyard and see how it inflates. Capt Phil

[Ziggy]

Originally Posted by sck5

Maybe sinking is an issue but what scares me is fire.

I don't believe that the risk of fire is a good reason by itself to get a life raft. You'd be better off with good procedures and a modest investment in fire prevention and firefighting equipment. I think fire risk could be reduced to almost zero.

[sabray]

Originally Posted by Minggat

Nice work. You make good points. You deliver them badly. And you completely discount the failure rate.

Please note, that I said "the mindset CAN be dangerous". I... being an idiot, think the mindset has pretty well demonstrated itself. The words "can be" were intended to give credit to other peoples thoughts on the subject.

"idiocy" and "is lunacy"... is a form of name calling. Does that work well for you?

Sadly, the last resort is often used as the first resort. And if that first/last resort simply fails to deploy then you've been enjoying a false sense of security and it MIGHT BE too late for other efforts that might safe your life.

What? Do you think some of us are simply saying "don't make any provisions for your safety" ? If you judge yourself to be the intellectual superior, it must be very frustrating to you to have to remind us that we are idiots.

It was never my intent to say that someone is endangering themselves by having a liferaft. It has always been my intent to point out that it is a more serious question than a simple "yes or no". Clearly, if you have room and budget, it's a good idea, as long as you know and when to deploy and that it might fail to inflate or fail in some other way.

If someone ask the question, then good chance they are up against some obstacle and they and others might appreciate hearing different viewpoints.

It's OK to share ideas without ridicule of others ideas.

I was not intending to ridicule.
Disagree sort of.I said to promote the idea that rafts are a bad idea. I will stand by that. If you want to advocate fir no life raft go ahead i think you got my position. Oit frustrated.I'm not a word smith,it's a tone of defense I hear in the thread like the cat monoi thing. A choice.hopefully your crew understand you don't want a life raft because You Might jump in it and you didnt want an epirb because you might risk someone else's life.a rafts is a good tool when I primarily solo sailed I didn't carry one. Circumstances now say carry one.it's pretty unusual that some one gets into a raft because they are terrified. like a tether a raft is a tool. There is a passion behind this that seems to advocate life rafts as failed devices that make idiots of sailors in bad times. The failure was way before things went bad and a raft or epirb was involved. These are mandatory in professional offshore races. The reason is they save lives. It should be a choice. To suggest that having a raft leads to a self sense of security is a inexperienced opinion. I bought one when my kids came aboard. Expensive yea I am nit putting them at risk because I have one. I would really not want to screw the pooch and tell them they are ditching the boat and getting into that dinghy that is flopping about like a kite. Sorry yes it's lunacy to suggest that having a raft has risked your choices. Idiocy to get into one because your terrified. A very good piece of gear if your going offshore better if people are trusting you with their lives. My choice when I have children or guests offshore. I promote getting a raft.

[zeehag]

learn to properly use fire extinguisher and have spares of those on board. learn how to identify the smell BEFORE an electrical fir occurs and unplug all when that smell is smelled and be safe.
i had a fire on board with a honda 3000 wtt generator -- pull pug as i approached and popped a small extinguisher-- the act of unplugging is what actually killed fire---- find source and remove and fire goes out.

[SteveT]

Coming from a professional marine background where safety issues are mandatory and not a matter of personal choice I am surprised as the vehemency of some of the arguments here.

On my own boat I choose not to have a liferaft mainly due to considerations of stowage. However if I was sailing with my grandson then I would probably re-think that idea. If I choose to place myself at hazard then that is my personal choice but I have no right to impose that same choice on someone else who is in no position to make a considered judgement.

I agree absolutely with all those who say that basically prevention is better than cure and anyone who goes to sea without taking all sensible precautions is asking for trouble anyway. Also surely it depends on where you cruise. If you are in an area with an effective SAR system in place or a considerable amount of commercial traffic you are much more likely to get picked up. If you are somewhere more exotic and off the beaten track your chances are much lower as even if your EBIRB signal is received the chances of anyone being close enough to actually rescue you will be less. You take your chances.

[oldjags]

I voted YES, primarily because my wife won't be going aboard for anything offshore without one. She gets the deciding vote, and if that's what it takes to help make her feel safe enough to go with me, then we'll have one.

It's easy to analyse rationally when you should or shouldn't deploy the raft, but in times of great stress and fear, people do not make rational decisions. Crews will often mutiny and decide to abandon ship in spite of the captain's decision to stay aboard when they can no longer stand the constant terror and stress of a major storm. They just don't realize it's going to be even worse in the liferaft. But they just can't take it anymore.

That's the thing I worry about in having a life raft. If the captain ever loses control of the situation and the crew starts feeling like its every man for himself, then panic sets in and reason goes out the window.

I think that probably accounts for many of the abandoned boats that are found floating safely after the crew abandons ship, never to be seen again.

[Velma]

Originally Posted by zeehag

i wont buy one--if i have to leave my home because the coach house is awash and we are sinking, i would rather die than deal with having to be homeless on land. besides, if i do call for help, is easier to see the sunken boat from above than a teensy weensy lil dot of a liferaft. i have had a good life--i helped others for a living. i enjoyed it very much. what i have now is gravy. no, i am not with death wish-- i am with a desire to not HAVE to be cooped up in a place that doesnt move with an unhappy cat who misses his awesome home..

You hit it right on the nose Zeehag!