Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

View Poll Results: do you plan to have a liferaft on your boat when heading out to cruise?
yes 180 64.98%
no 97 35.02%
Voters: 277. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 25-10-2011, 07:06   #226
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: between the devil and the deep blue sea
Boat: a sailing boat
Posts: 17,314
Re: Liferaft: Yes or No ?

I think the drysuit way is absolutely fabulous. And why? Because too many times I have heard and read about the boat and the crew getting a bit rock'n'rolled, the crew getting a bit wet and cold then they go down below and then the inevitable happens.

A dry and warm driver in the cockpit rather than a cold and frightened man below deck can make the difference between a bad weather sailing adventure and a liferaft deployment exercise.

b.
__________________

__________________
barnakiel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-10-2011, 07:43   #227
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: between the devil and the deep blue sea
Boat: a sailing boat
Posts: 17,314
Re: Liferaft: Yes or No ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adelie View Post
(...) I did not find anything applying to foreign flagged vessels.(...)[/FONT]
Yes, this is the present wording. The wording was possibly different for a period pre-2005 though. I remember issues between NZ authorities and international sailors attempting (not always successfully) to leave NZ after the summer-over.

We sailed out in 2006 and the requirement re foreign boats had been dropped for at least two years by then.

b.
__________________

__________________
barnakiel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-10-2011, 08:18   #228
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Probably in an anchorage or a boatyard..
Boat: Ebbtide 33' steel cutter
Posts: 3,541
Re: Liferaft: Yes or No ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by stevewrye View Post
Beth and Evans brought up non response to EPIRB's. Yes it happens and more than we all like but at the same time there have been many more who have had a response to an emergency EPRIB signal. Saliors in the roaring 40's thousands of miles from land have had quick rescues. I know of one search and rescue where both French and USA coast guard planes responded to a signal near the equator on a passage from Mexico to French Polynessia.
911 is not perfect as many goof ups have happened yet 911 has become such an important part of most of our lives even though we hopefully never have to use it. For a cruiser doing great passages EPIRB is your 911.

Properly registered EPRIB's work and I hope those with the dream of some day CROSSING OCEAN and MAKING LONG PASSAGES will not be influenced by the few times officials have not responded to an EPIRB signal. Please be responsible to yourself, your loved ones, crew and those brave souls that risk their life to go out and find you in a time of great need. Remember there is not a commercial fishing boat without an EPIRB, there is a reason for that and it's more than just regulations. They work and work well.
I'm very much with Evans on this one. Any talk of epirbs or liferafts should almost be as an afterthough. But work done on having abslutely every possible way of keeping your boat afloat with you on it should be far up the list before heading offshore. Some of the thinking on this thread seems to me to be approaching almost from the wrong way. I think it's safest to assume that no one is coming to get you, you are on your own out there and need to look after yourself, thats where all the energy and planning should go.

But of course I have an epirb as well, you never know, someone might come to help
__________________
conachair is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 25-10-2011, 08:28   #229
CF Adviser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2009
Boat: Custom Van De Stadt 47 Samoa
Posts: 3,755
Re: Liferaft: Yes or No ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
Yes, this is the present wording. The wording was possibly different for a period pre-2005 though. I remember issues between NZ authorities and international sailors attempting (not always successfully) to leave NZ after the summer-over.

We sailed out in 2006 and the requirement re foreign boats had been dropped for at least two years by then.

b.
exactly. It was sometime in the late 1990's, sometime after we were there in 1996. (can't find the exact details on the net)

NZ was trying to enforce the Cat 1 requirement on foreign cruising vessels and an America cruiser took them to court, all the way to the Queen's court (as I understand it their highest court) and won. The court ruled that by international maritime treaty, NZ could not require its own safety regulations apply to foreign vessels, it could only insist they follow the safety regulations of their home flag nation.

Several other countries have tried to do the same, with the same final outcome.
__________________
estarzinger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-10-2011, 08:46   #230
Registered User
 
Mexdon's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Mexico City
Boat: CR 56 CC to be built 2014 2015
Posts: 455
Send a message via Skype™ to Mexdon
Re: Liferaft: Yes or No ?

[QUOTE=Adelie;803379]
So instead of making the point you made yourself look over the top.

Perhaps but at least it drew attention and created comment which is the point of a forum is it not?


That is about half the definition of well-found so you have a grasp of the obvious.

Did I say it was the whole definition, certainly not there is a lot more than just safety equipment but this thread is on that aspect only not on everything about sailing as you imply.


What you are saying is a dinghy canít save your life but, yeah it can.

No I did not say a dinghy could not save your life...ref my post on Captain Bligh. What I said was a dinghy is not as save as a specially built dedicated life raft.

It would be nice if it werenít an issue and we could all spend $500,000 getting the boats of our dreams outfitted with all the equipment you think we should.

You mentioned a figure I did not. There are may very well found boats cruising that cost considerably less than that probably between 25K and 40K. What I said was if you have no money do not take your boat into the open sea as it will probably not be well founded/prepared for this type of voyage.

Really though, money is almost always an issue when making decisions about safety. From the cars we drive (Mercedes-Benz or Kia) to the health care we get. In the US people generally are able to chose the level of benefits they get and trade that off against the costs they pay. Even in Great Britain with national health care there are choices (waiting periods for treatments or surgeries or how often mammograms are done for older women), itís just that the government as a proxy for the whole society that makes the decision rather than the individual.

Agreed on your synopsis of trade.offs. However as I said if you are satisfied that what you have is safe go with it.

Extending your statement about not going if you donít have the money for every last safety item to cars, nobody should drive that canít afford a Mercedes, BMW or Lexus with all the latest safety designs. Those that canít should bike or take mass transit. OK I'm stretching the logic of your arguement a bit but not much.

Answered above

The research of what goes into a lifeboat or liferaft is not that hard. There is a very experienced member of this forum who talks in his blog about how he and his wife decided to forego a liferaft. The Pardeyís write in one of their books about their decision and the alternative preparations they made. Look at the advertised packing lists for several commercial liferafts.

Agreed and these people have eon's of experience and can guide others who have experience also.

What it seems like is that you think newbies are too stupid to figure it out.

I did not say nor imply newbies are stupid. However a person new to anything lacks the experience necessary to do everything correctly, they learn as we all have from experience and I would hate to think that someone died because they read a book and thought they new everything about preparing a dinghy for survival. They can do it and then ask for someone experienced to check it, but human nature normally precludes us from doing that until we have experienced an incident that taught us to do so. My argument is to help protect people from making errors.

So if logical argument doesnít work try an overwrought emotional appeal.

I am not overwrought nor emotional, I am just posting my point of view. This after all is a forum and not a certified text book on the subject.

On page 95 I found the statement :

On page 20 I found where it said ALL boats leaving. However I have investigated further and discovered that the law that was brought in in 1995 covering all foreign yachts was repealed and rescinded in 2003, something I had not known before. So yes now it is only NZ registered yachts that need these inspections. Thank you for making me investigate further.
__________________
When I was a boy my momma would send me down to the corner store with $1 and I would come back with 5 potatoes, 2 loaves of bread, 3 bottles of milk, a hunk of cheese, a box of tea and 6 eggs. Can't do that now, too many f**kn security cameras.
Mexdon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-10-2011, 08:47   #231
Registered User
 
psneeld's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Avalon, NJ
Boat: Albin 40 double cabin Trawler
Posts: 1,834
Re: Liferaft: Yes or No ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by conachair View Post
I'm very much with Evans on this one. Any talk of epirbs or liferafts should almost be as an afterthough. But work done on having abslutely every possible way of keeping your boat afloat with you on it should be far up the list before heading offshore. Some of the thinking on this thread seems to me to be approaching almost from the wrong way. I think it's safest to assume that no one is coming to get you, you are on your own out there and need to look after yourself, thats where all the energy and planning should go.

But of course I have an epirb as well, you never know, someone might come to help
I doubt anyone on here is so cavalier to head offshore without taking precautions...how many????...only that person knows.

Even commercials who ply the seas for a living have a plan to be rescued...AND hopefully carry the necessary equipment to alert rescue facilities and survive till help arrives.

While not necessarily at the top of the things to get done before heading offshore...NOT including at least some basic ways of surviving which includes rescue notification (float plan), floating (raft/float/dingy), and survival (if cold water, heat, extended floating due remote area water, etc)...is really pushing common sense because most cruisers should be able to buy a pen and paper, usually have a dingy and should have a plan to get some basic provisioning into the dingy for abandoning ship.

Will the minimum guarantee survival??? No, neither will the maximum safety gear....it's all about risk management...it's how you live your life ashore AND/OR afloat. Many cruisers I know will likely die ashore for various reasons...so survival at sea becomes less of a concern for them I guess....
__________________
psneeld is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-10-2011, 09:01   #232
Senior Cruiser
 
Minggat's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Hawaii, South Pacific bound
Boat: Islander 36
Posts: 1,221
Re: Liferaft: Yes or No ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by stevewrye View Post
But they do work and most of the time if properly taken care of.
If most of the time is good enough then OK. Not sure what "most" means. Could be as little as about 1/3 of the time. In that case, carry three and you're set. All you have to do is make sure you aren't fooling yourself into thinking you are a better sailor than those that were lost in Fastnet... just for example.
__________________
Minggat
Minggat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-10-2011, 09:24   #233
Registered User
 
Mexdon's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Mexico City
Boat: CR 56 CC to be built 2014 2015
Posts: 455
Send a message via Skype™ to Mexdon
Re: Liferaft: Yes or No ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minggat View Post
If most of the time is good enough then OK. Not sure what "most" means. Could be as little as about 1/3 of the time. In that case, carry three and you're set. All you have to do is make sure you aren't fooling yourself into thinking you are a better sailor than those that were lost in Fastnet... just for example.
Preparing for safety at sea is like doing your due diligence when you purchased your vessel. You do what, for you, is best and if for reasons beyond your control an item fails when it needs to be used you will most likely perish but that is part of the risk management we must consider when we go to sea.

In the vast majority of cases the safety equipment on board will never have to be deployed, if it does have to be deployed then again in the majority if not all of reported losses of vessels at sea, and where the crew were rescued, the safety equipment worked. On the few total disappearances we will never know if the equipment worked or not or what was the reason for the disappearance. So we go knowing we have done OUR best to ensure OUR safety.

Does anyone have statistics to compare the two scenarios? How many successful rescues to how many total disappearances.
__________________
When I was a boy my momma would send me down to the corner store with $1 and I would come back with 5 potatoes, 2 loaves of bread, 3 bottles of milk, a hunk of cheese, a box of tea and 6 eggs. Can't do that now, too many f**kn security cameras.
Mexdon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-10-2011, 09:28   #234
Registered User
 
psneeld's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Avalon, NJ
Boat: Albin 40 double cabin Trawler
Posts: 1,834
Re: Liferaft: Yes or No ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mexdon View Post
Preparing for safety at sea is like doing your due diligence when you purchased your vessel. You do what, for you, is best and if for reasons beyond your control an item fails when it needs to be used you will most likely perish but that is part of the risk management we must consider when we go to sea.

In the vast majority of cases the safety equipment on board will never have to be deployed, if it does have to be deployed then again in the majority if not all of reported losses of vessels at sea, and where the crew were rescued, the safety equipment worked. On the few total disappearances we will never know if the equipment worked or not or what was the reason for the disappearance. So we go knowing we have done OUR best to ensure OUR safety.

Does anyone have statistics to compare the two scenarios? How many successful rescues to how many total disappearances.
Not sure if the total disappearance stat is gonna be very useful unless there was a full blown safety investigation...otherwise the causes from start to finish are unknown and therefore not much use in debating either side of this question.
__________________
psneeld is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-10-2011, 09:38   #235
Registered User
 
Mexdon's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Mexico City
Boat: CR 56 CC to be built 2014 2015
Posts: 455
Send a message via Skype™ to Mexdon
Re: Liferaft: Yes or No ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
Not sure if the total disappearance stat is gonna be very useful unless there was a full blown safety investigation...otherwise the causes from start to finish are unknown and therefore not much use in debating either side of this question.
Agree to a point but if the name of the vessel was known then surely some investigation would have been carried out as to its last known state. That would give some indication of the preparedness and thus rise to considered opinion as to what happened.

People say that in some instances life rafts don't function. How do we know?
__________________
When I was a boy my momma would send me down to the corner store with $1 and I would come back with 5 potatoes, 2 loaves of bread, 3 bottles of milk, a hunk of cheese, a box of tea and 6 eggs. Can't do that now, too many f**kn security cameras.
Mexdon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-10-2011, 10:00   #236
Registered User
 
psneeld's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Avalon, NJ
Boat: Albin 40 double cabin Trawler
Posts: 1,834
Re: Liferaft: Yes or No ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mexdon View Post
Agree to a point but if the name of the vessel was known then surely some investigation would have been carried out as to its last known state. That would give some indication of the preparedness and thus rise to considered opinion as to what happened.

People say that in some instances life rafts don't function. How do we know?
We know some rafts don't inflate because like me when I pulled the inflation painter...it inflated then rapidly deflated because the packer didn't install the plug on the manual inflation port for the upper tube/canopy.



Investigation??? Are you kidding???? My brother leaves for Europe and doesn't arrive...you really think anyone is going to investigate past a one or two page form you fill out???? The life insurance company will investigate whether he's still alive...not what went wrong with the boat let alone survival gear.... If it's not in their jurisdiction or you suspect foul play...who's gonna waste their time or resources????
__________________
psneeld is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-10-2011, 10:01   #237
Eternal Member
 
wolfenzee's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Port Ludlow, WA (NW corner of Puget Sound)
Boat: 30' William Atkin cutter
Posts: 1,496
Send a message via ICQ to wolfenzee
Re: Liferaft: Yes or No ?

Not many people in small aircraft carry parachutes, with modern day design, construction and maintenance of a craft piloted by a well trained individual it make the chance of a crash extremely, comparatively so with a well designed, well equipped, and maintained boat crewed by someone that is a combination of intelligent, experienced and knowledgeable. The analogy doesn't end there, if the boat/aircraft is about to sink/crash you have get off the boat then into and inflate /put on and get out of the air craft and deploy the liferaft/parachute.....then if you don't die of drowning, starvation, dehydration, exposure, hypothermia, etc/impact. you still need to be found. The chances are alot better with an airplane because you have to file a flightplan and all aircraft are monitored (you can actually go on line and see where all aircraft in flight in US airspace are). Float plans help a little, but there are a number of gizmos out there from a gadget that bounces text messages off of commercial satelites (coord, speed, bearing "am ok" or a distress message), more complex like a sat phone to keep in contact with one individual or SSB which allows you to keep in contact with networks.
Safety is best described as preventative measure, like preventing the need for actually using a life raft (the need for carrying one will allays be there). I don't want it to seem that a life rafts place on my list of priorities means I am either ignorant of the dangers of the sea or too arrogant to think anything like that could ever happen to me.
When looking at statistics, first figuring in the total number of accidents/boat world wide, subtract the accidents and boats from inland waters, then the accidents involving boats that were not designed, equipped, maintained or manned to be at sea (any one who any one who goes to the trouble and expense of equipping their boat with a life raft would not fall under this category unless they figure a life raft would protect them.
__________________
"It is better to die living than live dieing" (Tolstoy para-phrased by Jimmy Buffet)
"Those who think they know everything piss off those of us who do"
wolfenzee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-10-2011, 10:11   #238
Registered User
 
Mexdon's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Mexico City
Boat: CR 56 CC to be built 2014 2015
Posts: 455
Send a message via Skype™ to Mexdon
Re: Liferaft: Yes or No ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
Investigation??? Are you kidding???? My brother leaves for Europe and doesn't arrive...you really think anyone is going to investigate past a one or two page form you fill out???? The life insurance company will investigate whether he's still alive...not what went wrong with the boat let alone survival gear.... If it's not in their jurisdiction or you suspect foul play...who's gonna waste their time or resources????
What you say unfortunately is the reality. I just find is amazing that a private plane goes down with just the pilot aboard and the search and investigation seems to be endless......are private pilots so much more important than those of us who choose to go by sea?
__________________
When I was a boy my momma would send me down to the corner store with $1 and I would come back with 5 potatoes, 2 loaves of bread, 3 bottles of milk, a hunk of cheese, a box of tea and 6 eggs. Can't do that now, too many f**kn security cameras.
Mexdon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-10-2011, 10:14   #239
Registered User
 
Mexdon's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Mexico City
Boat: CR 56 CC to be built 2014 2015
Posts: 455
Send a message via Skype™ to Mexdon
Re: Liferaft: Yes or No ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfenzee View Post
Safety is best described as preventative measure, like preventing the need for actually using a life raft (the need for carrying one will allays be there). .
Brilliantly written.
__________________
When I was a boy my momma would send me down to the corner store with $1 and I would come back with 5 potatoes, 2 loaves of bread, 3 bottles of milk, a hunk of cheese, a box of tea and 6 eggs. Can't do that now, too many f**kn security cameras.
Mexdon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-10-2011, 10:22   #240
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Probably in an anchorage or a boatyard..
Boat: Ebbtide 33' steel cutter
Posts: 3,541
Re: Liferaft: Yes or No ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
I doubt anyone on here is so cavalier to head offshore without taking precautions...how many????...only that person knows.

Even commercials who ply the seas for a living have a plan to be rescued...AND hopefully carry the necessary equipment to alert rescue facilities and survive till help arrives.

While not necessarily at the top of the things to get done before heading offshore...NOT including at least some basic ways of surviving which includes rescue notification (float plan), floating (raft/float/dingy), and survival (if cold water, heat, extended floating due remote area water, etc)...is really pushing common sense because most cruisers should be able to buy a pen and paper, usually have a dingy and should have a plan to get some basic provisioning into the dingy for abandoning ship.

Will the minimum guarantee survival??? No, neither will the maximum safety gear....it's all about risk management...it's how you live your life ashore AND/OR afloat. Many cruisers I know will likely die ashore for various reasons...so survival at sea becomes less of a concern for them I guess....
Yep, maybe I went a bit too far the other way. All these things need thought and planning. My whole point is that the bulk of planning and thought should go into not needing a liferaft or epirb. Once you've done the absolute best you can there then think about how to leave the boat in the middle of an ocean.
__________________

__________________
conachair is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
liferaft

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
A Self-Service Liferaft Design - Interested ? David_Old_Jersey Health, Safety & Related Gear 70 20-01-2016 14:56
For Sale: Liferaft: 8-Person Plastimo Transocean George P Classifieds Archive 5 16-12-2011 11:59
Sailing without a Liferaft or EPIRB Rory B Health, Safety & Related Gear 27 09-10-2011 10:19
Liferaft AquaticUrsidae Health, Safety & Related Gear 1 11-07-2011 22:42
Lavezzi 40: Removal of Liferaft Recess in Rear of Lavezzi Cruisin Cat Fountaine Pajot 1 07-07-2011 14:21



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 06:38.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.