Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

View Poll Results: do you plan to have a liferaft on your boat when heading out to cruise?
yes 180 64.98%
no 97 35.02%
Voters: 277. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 24-10-2011, 13:10   #211
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Hood River Or
Boat: Boereal 44
Posts: 189
Re: Liferaft: Yes or No ?

Cruisers talk openly about safety at sea be it in an anchorage in Fiji or at a marina in La Paz, Mexico and I would say that most long range open ocean passage makers who have life rafts and those who don't carry plywood and all the other items to use in case of a sinking vessel and intend on using them before abandoning ship. Evans and Beth may have met far more than I have who do not. Yes there are those few who sail across oceans on very poorly out fitted vessels and have been doing so for years but I think I can honestly say there are not that many of them compared to those who do outfit their boats properly.

7500 mentioned having a 3000 dollar life raft on a 20,000 dollar boat. There are plenty of 20,000 dollar boats making serious passages out there but most of them put a lot more dollars into the boat to make it safer, do they have life rafts, I do not know. On our last passage across the Pacific we met two boats that were worth 20,000 dollars and no upgrades who crossed at the same time we did. One had been around the world twice and his boat looked it, the other stepped of the his boat in NZ and never went aboard again, gave it away before it sunk. There appears to be very few 20K boats sailing all over the world without major up grades and those that do not upgrade probably do not consider a life raft, EPIRB or SSB.

I have not read any posts where people for life rafts are saying that coastal cruisers should have one. A life raft to a seasoned open ocean cruiser is just the last resort to step into after the sheets of plywood fail, the trash pump can't keep up, all the underwater caulking runs out and you and the crew are too tired from trying to save your vessel to continue. Maybe owners of life rafts are paranoid but it is a good paranoid to have.
__________________

__________________
stevewrye is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-10-2011, 13:13   #212
Armchair Bucketeer
 
David_Old_Jersey's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 10,013
Images: 4
Re: Liferaft: Yes or No ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mexdon View Post
The value of the boat is not the equation here, it is the value you put on your life and more importantly on the lives of your family, children, friends. If that has no value for you then go ahead don't have a life raft...but don't drive a car a with brakes either.
You don't get away with that one for free

A car with no brakes? That's more like a boat with no seacocks....not simply a boat without a paddling pool sized comfort blanket. A car with no Airbag would be a better comparison........

Family, children, freinds having no value because of simply not having a liferaft? - in what sort of state are the boats you sail???? A bit of basic maintanence would turn most voyages from a liferaft hugging death trip into a pleasant day out

Money does not have to come into it (unless simply don't have ), it's about assessing risks through knowledge and experiance and applying the resources available (including, but not simply cash) - not everyone tries (or needs) to buy "safety" (Lol!) off the shelf. Ignorance and wishful thinking likely to be more expensive in both lives and cash.

IMO feeling insecure about your own choices simply because others have chosen differently is not a sign that would generate confidence in me, whether Skipper is in the herd or using own drumb..........
__________________

__________________
David_Old_Jersey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-10-2011, 14:41   #213
֍֎֍֎֍֎֍֎֍֎

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 13,042
Re: Liferaft: Yes or No ?

A drysuit can baste you in you own juices unless it is fairly cold out, or you're fairly inactive. But more to the point, unless you're already maintaining one for diving purposes, don't you find the wrist seals, neck seal, etc. need a lot of expensive ongoing maintenance as they need to be replaced? Or do you let those go, and use that drysuit "ventilated" that way as a foulie?

Drysuits, like life rafts, seem to need a lot more maintenance than anyone mentions up front.
__________________
hellosailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-10-2011, 15:53   #214
CF Adviser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2009
Boat: Custom Van De Stadt 47 Samoa
Posts: 3,745
Re: Liferaft: Yes or No ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
A drysuit can baste you in you own juices unless it is fairly cold out, or you're fairly inactive.

It's a musto drysuit made of breathable quite light material - very comfortable everywhere except the tropics - where we tend not to wear weather gear">foul weather gear. I would not wear it for diving, I also have a proper arctic diving drysuit that is significantly heavier duty and less comfortable out of the water.

But more to the point, unless you're already maintaining one for diving purposes, don't you find the wrist seals, neck seal, etc. need a lot of expensive ongoing maintenance as they need to be replaced? Or do you let those go, and use that drysuit "ventilated" that way as a foulie?

hmmm . . . I have had the musto for more than 10 years and never done any maintenance on it - correct that I have a few times rubbed some wax on the zipper. The seals are still perfect. My expectation is that the integral booties will fail first. The diving drysuit is newer, about 5 years, and I have also done no maintenance on it and it seems fine but I did not use it this summer so I don't know that for sure.

Drysuits, like life rafts, seem to need a lot more maintenance than anyone mentions up front.

So, that's actually not my experience, but as indicated above I don;t use them for diving very much.
......
__________________
estarzinger is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 24-10-2011, 15:59   #215
Registered User
 
Mexdon's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Mexico City
Boat: CR 56 CC to be built 2014 2015
Posts: 455
Send a message via Skype™ to Mexdon
Re: Liferaft: Yes or No ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey View Post
You don't get away with that one for free

A car with no brakes? That's more like a boat with no seacocks....not simply a boat without a paddling pool sized comfort blanket. A car with no Airbag would be a better comparison........

Family, children, freinds having no value because of simply not having a liferaft? - in what sort of state are the boats you sail???? A bit of basic maintanence would turn most voyages from a liferaft hugging death trip into a pleasant day out

Money does not have to come into it (unless simply don't have ), it's about assessing risks through knowledge and experiance and applying the resources available (including, but not simply cash) - not everyone tries (or needs) to buy "safety" (Lol!) off the shelf. Ignorance and wishful thinking likely to be more expensive in both lives and cash.

IMO feeling insecure about your own choices simply because others have chosen differently is not a sign that would generate confidence in me, whether Skipper is in the herd or using own drumb..........
I used an extreme comparison to make a point. A properly founded boat should include safety equipment. In sailing around the bays life jackets and a dinghy should be sufficient in the case of having to abandon ship. Further out a dinghy is not a life saving device as is a commercial life raft. It is a device that can be used as a substitute bit IMO is not as safe.

As you say money should not be an issue and IMO if you don't have any you should not be venturing away from the coast as, as you so correctly point out the boat would probably not be in very good condition. There are a few experienced people who could prepare a dinghy for live aboard safety if it came to that so yes some people will choose that path. But there are hundreds of new boaters who read this forum and will start to think they can also prepare a dinghy to replace a life raft for offshore voyages to save money. They will most likely ready something that looks OK but will not do the job when it comes down to it. Thus my comment on placing value on your family friends or anyone who may be on board. If you feel that what you have will save their lives go with it. However if there is just one shred of doubt then I suggest go commercial.

I am not talking about poorly maintained boats that go out I am talking about well prepared boats in good condition. The precaution is for an incidence that will probably never happen, but whales do hole boats, containers do rip great gashes and your yacht will sink, unlikely but is it not worth it to be prepared to the best of the owners ability.

Being from NZ I tend to look at their regulations for whatever yacht I sail. I have attached the web reference for you to have a look at. Although specifically targeted at NZ registered boats it does state all boats leaving for foreign cruising and in NZ a life raft which is designed and only used for the purpose of saving lives must be aboard.

Note under the regulations all cruising boats going off shore must conform to CAT 1 racing regs.

http://www.yachtingnz.org.nz/Upload/...ling_09-12.pdf
__________________
When I was a boy my momma would send me down to the corner store with $1 and I would come back with 5 potatoes, 2 loaves of bread, 3 bottles of milk, a hunk of cheese, a box of tea and 6 eggs. Can't do that now, too many f**kn security cameras.
Mexdon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-10-2011, 20:33   #216
֍֎֍֎֍֎֍֎֍֎

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 13,042
Re: Liferaft: Yes or No ?

My bad, I forget there are sailing drysuits and diving drysuits, and the two are not the same. A lot of diving drysuits use latex seals where the flesh pops through, and those don't always age well. A sailing drysuit could afford to have a much gentler fit on those, I suppose.
__________________
hellosailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-10-2011, 21:56   #217
Marine Service Provider

Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Eldean Shipyard, Holland, MI
Boat: 1977 Pearson 30
Posts: 113
Re: Liferaft: Yes or No ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mexdon View Post
As you say money should not be an issue and IMO if you don't have any you should not be venturing away from the coast...
Uh-huh. Historically the ocean has been reserved for the rich.
__________________
Anonymous7500 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-10-2011, 23:07   #218
Moderator
 
Adelie's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: La Ciudad de la Misión Didacus de Alcalá en Alta California, Virreinato de Nueva España
Boat: Cal 20
Posts: 4,621
Re: Liferaft: Yes or No ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mexdon View Post
I used an extreme comparison to make a point.

So instead of making the point you made yourself look over the top.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mexdon View Post
A properly founded boat should include safety equipment.
That is about half the definition of well-found so you have a grasp of the obvious.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mexdon View Post
In sailing around the bays life jackets and a dinghy should be sufficient in the case of having to abandon ship. Further out a dinghy is not a life saving device as is a commercial life raft. It is a device that can be used as a substitute bit IMO is not as safe.
What you are saying is a dinghy can’t save your life but, yeah it can.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mexdon View Post
As you say money should not be an issue and IMO if you don't have any you should not be venturing away from the coast as, as you so correctly point out the boat would probably not be in very good condition.
It would be nice if it weren’t an issue and we could all spend $500,000 getting the boats of our dreams outfitted with all the equipment you think we should.

Really though, money is almost always an issue when making decisions about safety. From the cars we drive (Mercedes-Benz or Kia) to the health care we get. In the US people generally are able to chose the level of benefits they get and trade that off against the costs they pay. Even in Great Britain with national health care there are choices (waiting periods for treatments or surgeries or how often mammograms are done for older women), it’s just that the government as a proxy for the whole society that makes the decision rather than the individual.

Extending your statement about not going if you don’t have the money for every last safety item to cars, nobody should drive that can’t afford a Mercedes, BMW or Lexus with all the latest safety designs. Those that can’t should bike or take mass transit. OK I'm stretching the logic of your arguement a bit but not much.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mexdon View Post
There are a few experienced people who could prepare a dinghy for live aboard safety if it came to that so yes some people will choose that path. But there are hundreds of new boaters who read this forum and will start to think they can also prepare a dinghy to replace a life raft for offshore voyages to save money. They will most likely ready something that looks OK but will not do the job when it comes down to it.
The research of what goes into a lifeboat or liferaft is not that hard. There is a very experienced member of this forum who talks in his blog about how he and his wife decided to forego a liferaft. The Pardey’s write in one of their books about their decision and the alternative preparations they made. Look at the advertised packing lists for several commercial liferafts.

What it seems like is that you think newbies are too stupid to figure it out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mexdon View Post
Thus my comment on placing value on your family friends or anyone who may be on board. If you feel that what you have will save their lives go with it. However if there is just one shred of doubt then I suggest go commercial.
So if logical argument doesn’t work try an overwrought emotional appeal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mexdon View Post
I am not talking about poorly maintained boats that go out I am talking about well prepared boats in good condition. The precaution is for an incidence that will probably never happen, but whales do hole boats, containers do rip great gashes and your yacht will sink, unlikely but is it not worth it to be prepared to the best of the owners ability.
Being from NZ I tend to look at their regulations for whatever yacht I sail. I have attached the web reference for you to have a look at. Although specifically targeted at NZ registered boats it does state all boats leaving for foreign cruising and in NZ a life raft which is designed and only used for the purpose of saving lives must be aboard.
Note under the regulations all cruising boats going off shore must conform to CAT 1 racing regs.

NZ Yachting Safety Rules 2009-2012
On page 95 I found the statement :

PLEASURE YACHTS DEPARTING NEW ZEALAND FOR OVERSEAS
The following requirements apply to New Zealand flagged pleasure
craft departing from any port in New Zealand for any place outside New
Zealand.”

I did not find anything applying to foreign flagged vessels. If you can find the citation, please let us know.




My observation of liferaft debates is that both sides have valid arguments but that the pro side generally loses it way in emotional appeals and an inability to address the other side’s points because of an unwillingness to acknowledge the validity of those points.

For those that think they know my position on this topic from what I have written in this post up to this point, think again. In 5yr so when we head out I expect to have an inflatable liferaft aboard.

Here’s my take on the whole issue.

Pro liferaft:
-More stable in really bad seas.
-Possible quicker deployment
-Swamping is not as dire an issue

Pro lifeboat (dinghy):
-Much more durable, the vast majority of long term drifts before rescue have been on solid objects, inflatables don’t last well. Also, in the event of a fire or explosion a dinghy is more likely to be usable despite damage.
-Cheaper to buy and to maintain.
-Able to actively move survivors towards a landfall, a benefit both by shortening the time afloat and for the psychological reason that people that can take active steps toward their own rescue are more likely to survive, even over short periods.
-Less of a temptation to bail out prematurely, a not uncommon issue.

The choice of either is not made in a vacuum, unless you carry an EPIRB or are less than 400nm upwind from land the raft is going to be a very tenuous thread to stake your life on.

Without the means to deal with heavy weather a dinghy is likewise doing to be very iffy.

In places near the 1st world a liferaft with an EPIRB is probably the better choice.

Mid-ocean, away from trafficked areas or near many 3rd world countries, the dinghy is probably better.

And there are a whole lot of places in between.
__________________
A house is but a boat so poorly built and so firmly run aground no one would think to try and refloat it.
SailboatData
Adelie is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 24-10-2011, 23:34   #219
Registered User
 
Jimbo485's Avatar

Join Date: May 2010
Location: some ocean down under
Boat: Kelsall Suncat 40
Posts: 1,247
Very well put, Adelie, with a nice balance.

I would also add consideration for "black box" type safety devices. This refers to anything you cannot use on a regular basis. You use your sailing dinghy regularly and know that it is fine or requires some maintenance. It is YOUR life and YOUR family and YOU can regularly use the device that might have to save you all.

Can you say the same about your liferaft?

OTOH, if you don't have faith in your own ability to pack your own parachute, get an expert to do it, store it away in a closet, check it once a year, get a nice certificate, and then cross your fingers when it is time to use it......
__________________

Jimbo485 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-10-2011, 23:44   #220
Registered User
 
hoppy's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Boat: Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 40
Posts: 2,842
I wonder how many circumnavigators have completed their journey and looked at their life raft and thought "what a total waste of money, we never even used it once"
__________________
S/Y Jessabbé http://www.jessabbe.com/
hoppy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-10-2011, 23:53   #221
Registered User
 
Jimbo485's Avatar

Join Date: May 2010
Location: some ocean down under
Boat: Kelsall Suncat 40
Posts: 1,247
That's what we thought the first time, Hoppy. The fact that it didn't inflate was our little show stopper...
o)
__________________

Jimbo485 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-10-2011, 23:53   #222
Moderator
 
Adelie's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: La Ciudad de la Misión Didacus de Alcalá en Alta California, Virreinato de Nueva España
Boat: Cal 20
Posts: 4,621
Re: Liferaft: Yes or No ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hoppy View Post
I wonder how many circumnavigators have completed their journey and looked at their life raft and thought "what a total waste of money, we never even used it once"
Probably none. If they carried a liferaft, they probably had a better attitude about safety.

Those that did think it was a waste of money probably did so for other reasons, like reconsidering their original rationale for carrying one or because the tested the raft and it didn't work.
__________________
A house is but a boat so poorly built and so firmly run aground no one would think to try and refloat it.
SailboatData
Adelie is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 25-10-2011, 00:01   #223
Registered User
 
James S's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2008
Location: Yemen & Lebanon... the sailboat is in Lebenon, the dhow is in Yemen
Boat: 1978 CT48 & 65ft Cargo Dhow
Posts: 5,816
Images: 139
Re: Liferaft: Yes or No ?

I just replaced a 15year old life raft that had never been used with a brand new one that I hope will never be used....I do the same with fire extinguishers...I'm happy to spend the money with the hope that they will never get used.

Would I not experience the splendor of sailing because I couldnt aford a liferaft...no, I would sail.
__________________
James
S/V Arctic Lady
I love my boat, I can't afford not to!
James S is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-10-2011, 00:02   #224
Marine Service Provider

Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Eldean Shipyard, Holland, MI
Boat: 1977 Pearson 30
Posts: 113
Re: Liferaft: Yes or No ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hoppy View Post
I wonder how many circumnavigators have completed their journey and looked at their life raft and thought "what a total waste of money, we never even used it once"
Since it seems that most circumnavigators are in no hurry to complete the task and take years to do it, I wonder how many stop every 365 days to have their raft re-certified by an authorized facility. Come to think of it, I wonder if there is a market for placebo life rafts, you know, an empty box clearly marked "Life Raft Inside".....hmmmmmm
__________________
Anonymous7500 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-10-2011, 07:01   #225
Registered User
 
thomm225's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Hampton Roads
Boat: 1974 Bristol 27
Posts: 3,468
Re: Liferaft: Yes or No ?

A good life raft can be useful.............Steven Callahan's Life Raft lasted 76 days and carried him across the Atlantic after his boat was broken in half at night most probably by a whale. He ended up in his life raft with only the shirt on his back. He was able to go back to his boat for his survival kit which included supplies, watermaker,(military surplus) etc
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	adrift-2.jpg
Views:	64
Size:	47.3 KB
ID:	32946  
__________________

__________________
thomm225 is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
liferaft

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
A Self-Service Liferaft Design - Interested ? David_Old_Jersey Health, Safety & Related Gear 70 20-01-2016 14:56
For Sale: Liferaft: 8-Person Plastimo Transocean George P Classifieds Archive 5 16-12-2011 11:59
Sailing without a Liferaft or EPIRB Rory B Health, Safety & Related Gear 27 09-10-2011 10:19
Liferaft AquaticUrsidae Health, Safety & Related Gear 1 11-07-2011 22:42
Lavezzi 40: Removal of Liferaft Recess in Rear of Lavezzi Cruisin Cat Fountaine Pajot 1 07-07-2011 14:21



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 07:11.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.