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Old 16-02-2016, 18:54   #16
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Re: Liferaft Size

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Originally Posted by MarkJ View Post
I got rid if my 10 man liferaft a few months ago. I had to hoist the bastard off the boat with the main halyard ON THE WINCH!

So if u and the missus can launch a 6 man life raft with 1 of you injured go for it. Or save money and get a 4 man valise so u can store it out of the weather.

Btw, I tested the emergency rations by taking a bite of one: Worst taste I have ever, ever had in my mouth and needed a litre of water to wash the taste away. Really, truly disgusting!
I am not going to get a soft pack and store it below, the last thing I want to do if the boat is sinking is make two trips up the ladder for the raft and the go bag. Do you think it is easier for a person to slide a 75 pound hard case off the deck, or carry a 60 pound soft case up the companionway with one hand?
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Old 16-02-2016, 19:01   #17
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Re: Liferaft Size

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Originally Posted by Paul L View Post
Can the smallest/weakest member of the crew launch tjhe 6 man raft by themselves in trying conditions? 6 man rafts get heavy and bulky.
As far as a 6 man raft being too bulky, Winslow uses the same hard case for their 4 and 6 person rafts.
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Old 16-02-2016, 19:24   #18
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Re: Liferaft Size

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Originally Posted by MarkJ View Post
I got rid if my 10 man liferaft a few months ago. I had to hoist the bastard off the boat with the main halyard ON THE WINCH!

So if u and the missus can launch a 6 man life raft with 1 of you injured go for it. Or save money and get a 4 man valise so u can store it out of the weather.
!
That's what I do. My head is at the base of the companionway. I stow my valise in a teak rack behind the head. I can lift it with one hand with my ditch bag across my shoulders. I'm always alone so a 4 man raft is perfect. It was very important that I could lift it one handed just in case of an injury.
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Old 16-02-2016, 19:26   #19
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Re: Liferaft Size

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Originally Posted by deluxe68 View Post
I am not going to get a soft pack and store it below, the last thing I want to do if the boat is sinking is make two trips up the ladder for the raft and the go bag. Do you think it is easier for a person to slide a 75 pound hard case off the deck, or carry a 60 pound soft case up the companionway with one hand?
Mine is in a cockpit lazarette. Keeps it dry. Lazarette also has the grab bags, life jackets etc.

The contents of my life raft had deteriayed due to moisture... all batteries, torches etc, and the footpump broke into a million pieces and the metal had rusted. So yes, my plan is good for me.

Other interesting thing is modern EPIRBS. Is it better to buy an extra EPIRB with the savings on a smaller raft? How many people, recently, have had a long time floating in rafts? Before epirbs there was quite a few.

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Old 16-02-2016, 21:01   #20
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Re: Liferaft Size

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Originally Posted by MarkJ View Post
Mine is in a cockpit lazarette. Keeps it dry. Lazarette also has the grab bags, life jackets etc.

The contents of my life raft had deteriayed due to moisture... all batteries, torches etc, and the footpump broke into a million pieces and the metal had rusted. So yes, my plan is good for me.

Other interesting thing is modern EPIRBS. Is it better to buy an extra EPIRB with the savings on a smaller raft? How many people, recently, have had a long time floating in rafts? Before epirbs there was quite a few.

We have one EPIRB and one PLB, will get another PLB in May or maybe a personal AIS.
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Old 17-02-2016, 08:01   #21
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Re: Liferaft Size

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Originally Posted by MarkJ View Post
Mine is in a cockpit lazarette. Keeps it dry. Lazarette also has the grab bags, life jackets etc.

The contents of my life raft had deteriayed due to moisture... all batteries, torches etc, and the footpump broke into a million pieces and the metal had rusted. So yes, my plan is good for me.
Having a life raft in a valise has it's advantages. I'm a bird in the hand kinda guy and do not like to depend on secondary systems (HRUs) to deliver my life support equipment.
If the vessel capsizes (over 500 capsizes in U.S. annually), there is a likelihood that the HRU (hydrolic Release Unit) will not submerse deep enough to activate the HRU and even if it does release, there is a good chance the life raft and lines will get tangled in the rigging or stuck under the vessel.
The other problem with canistered life rafts is that they are exposed to the two major killers of the life raft materials; salt water and sunlight. Because the canister is not waterproof (they have water release holes in the bottom), it is likely that salt water can get into the canister during moderate to heavy seas. Now add the sun and you literally have a life raft sitting in near boiling water. This is what causes the conditions mentioned in the quote above. I could go on about how difficult it is to manually deploy a canistered life raft as well.
With a valised life raft, you can place it in a location topside, in the bridge, in a lazarette (sp), while underway. This gives you the ability to have the life raft and all grab bags in the same place, close, within reach, and most importantly, in your hands.
Winslow has a six person offshore life raft (dual tubed), with a canopy and double insulated (inflatable) floor that weighs only 36 lbs. The equipment container in the life raft is minimal, but it has enough supplies to get you found fast, such as signal mirror and rescue laser flare. I offer and routinely place PLBs in the equipment containers as well. I can also have the life raft built to your specifications. For instance, if you are concerned about stability, I can have the larger Cape Horn ballast bags installed vs. the standard ballast, which is more than adequate.
Winslow even sells a pelican case to place your life raft in if moisture is a concern. This also helps to move the life raft around if you want to carry it home during your off sailing time, which is a good idea because your life raft will live forever if kept in a controlled environment (a/c), and it also lessens the chance of theft.
Winslow 60ULO http://winslowliferaft.com/wp-conten...t-Offshore.pdf
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Old 17-02-2016, 08:17   #22
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Re: Liferaft Size

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Originally Posted by ASTBoone View Post
Having a life raft in a valise has it's advantages. I'm a bird in the hand kinda guy and do not like to depend on secondary systems (HRUs) to deliver my life support equipment.
If the vessel capsizes (over 500 capsizes in U.S. annually), there is a likelihood that the HRU (hydrolic Release Unit) will not submerse deep enough to activate the HRU and even if it does release, there is a good chance the life raft and lines will get tangled in the rigging or stuck under the vessel.
The other problem with canistered life rafts is that they are exposed to the two major killers of the life raft materials; salt water and sunlight. Because the canister is not waterproof (they have water release holes in the bottom), it is likely that salt water can get into the canister during moderate to heavy seas. Now add the sun and you literally have a life raft sitting in near boiling water. This is what causes the conditions mentioned in the quote above. I could go on about how difficult it is to manually deploy a canistered life raft as well.
With a valised life raft, you can place it in a location topside, in the bridge, in a lazarette (sp), while underway. This gives you the ability to have the life raft and all grab bags in the same place, close, within reach, and most importantly, in your hands.
Winslow has a six person offshore life raft (dual tubed), with a canopy and double insulated (inflatable) floor that weighs only 36 lbs. The equipment container in the life raft is minimal, but it has enough supplies to get you found fast, such as signal mirror and rescue laser flare. I offer and routinely place PLBs in the equipment containers as well. I can also have the life raft built to your specifications. For instance, if you are concerned about stability, I can have the larger Cape Horn ballast bags installed vs. the standard ballast, which is more than adequate.
Winslow even sells a pelican case to place your life raft in if moisture is a concern. This also helps to move the life raft around if you want to carry it home during your off sailing time, which is a good idea because your life raft will live forever if kept in a controlled environment (a/c), and it also lessens the chance of theft.
Winslow 60ULO http://winslowliferaft.com/wp-conten...t-Offshore.pdf

Wouldn't it be equally difficult to remove a raft from a lazarrette if the boat capsizes? There are positives and negatives for every raft type, size, and mounting location. If I was wealthy I would have two rafts, one in a hard case and a lighter one in a valise bag.
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Old 17-02-2016, 22:09   #23
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Re: Liferaft Size

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Wouldn't it be equally difficult to remove a raft from a lazarrette if the boat capsizes? There are positives and negatives for every raft type, size, and mounting location. If I was wealthy I would have two rafts, one in a hard case and a lighter one in a valise bag.
How about the SAR6 on deck and two of these in your grab bag? The ISPLR weighs 5 lbs and the pack size is 12" long. Switlik - ISPLR Single Person Life Raft
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Old 18-02-2016, 06:07   #24
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Re: Liferaft Size

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Originally Posted by ASTBoone View Post
How about the SAR6 on deck and two of these in your grab bag? The ISPLR weighs 5 lbs and the pack size is 12" long. Switlik - ISPLR Single Person Life Raft
I would more likely just get one ISPLR for my wife. I would use the raft, seems fair.
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Old 18-02-2016, 06:18   #25
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Re: Liferaft Size

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Originally Posted by ASTBoone View Post
How about the SAR6 on deck and two of these in your grab bag? The ISPLR weighs 5 lbs and the pack size is 12" long. Switlik - ISPLR Single Person Life Raft
We are considering numerous options. One of which is to get a cheaper 4 person raft in a valise, something that can easily be removed from a lazarrette, and get an SAR-6 (hard case on deck) in 5 years if we make it out to more remote locations. I had not previously looked at the single person rafts, they are an interesting option. I will have to look into them and see is they are suitable for coastal waters in California.
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Old 18-02-2016, 06:38   #26
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Re: Liferaft Size

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Originally Posted by deluxe68 View Post
We have one EPIRB and one PLB, will get another PLB in May or maybe a personal AIS.
Yep. I think doing everything to ensure a rapid pick-up is important.

Multiple epirbs going off must make it obvious to SAR that the emergency is genuine.

Life in a raft without an epieb would be quite droll. Chances of being picked up very remote.
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Old 18-02-2016, 09:08   #27
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Re: Liferaft Size

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We are considering numerous options. One of which is to get a cheaper 4 person raft in a valise, something that can easily be removed from a lazarrette, and get an SAR-6 (hard case on deck) in 5 years if we make it out to more remote locations. I had not previously looked at the single person rafts, they are an interesting option. I will have to look into them and see is they are suitable for coastal waters in California.
The ISPLRs have been around in the aviation community for a while now and are currently used by USCG Rescue Swimmers. I took them to a pocket cruisers forum in Lake Havasu AZ a few years back and they loved it. The belt pack was a hit there. I will be doing a water survival class on the 26th in Gulf Shores AL. Come on down and I'll let you play around in one to see how you like it. I'll also be training with the 60ULO that I mentioned in a previous post.
I mostly sell them to pilots that are ferrying aircraft from/to UK. They travel the Trans-Atlantic route - Canada, Greenland, Iceland.
Originally they did not have inflatable floors in them and I contacted Switlik and asked them if they could install a inflatable floor and they came through. You can now buy them with or without the inflatable floor, but I would defiantly recommend a floor for CA waters. In fact, I recently recommended to Switlik that they should only be sold with the floor.
Here's a video of a Cirrus aircraft doing a parachute landing in the water.
The pilot climbs into a ISPLR and is rescued from the ISPLR.
Cirrus chute deployment taped near Hawaii - AOPA
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Old 18-02-2016, 09:42   #28
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Re: Liferaft Size

USD$1,000 for a one man life raft


http://store.switlik.com/products/isplr
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Old 18-02-2016, 10:13   #29
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Re: Liferaft Size

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USD$1,000 for a one man life raft


ISPLR | Switlik Store

Or,
$899.00 w/o floor
$1099.00 w/ floor
They can also come hermetically sealed for an additional $100.00
USD
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Old 18-02-2016, 14:40   #30
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Re: Liferaft Size

Mark,
As usual, you have hit upon a VERY important issue....but one that is unfortunately misunderstood by many...
(I hope you don't mind my adding to the discussion, and providing some real-world clarity?)
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkJ View Post
Other interesting thing is modern EPIRBS. Is it better to buy an extra EPIRB with the savings on a smaller raft? How many people, recently, have had a long time floating in rafts? Before epirbs there was quite a few.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkJ View Post
Yep. I think doing everything to ensure a rapid pick-up is important.

Multiple epirbs going off must make it obvious to SAR that the emergency is genuine.

Life in a raft without an epieb would be quite droll. Chances of being picked up very remote.
Yes, should an emergency occur and you need rescue (the only reason you'd set-off an EPIRB), getting your emergency call heard by everyone, especially the RCC's and vessels near you, is of course what we all hope to accomplish!!

EPIRB Activation? What happens/How to improve rescue odds

And, here is where things take time!!
It is not like dialing 911 (or 999) on a cell phone, on shore....and calling the RCC's directly on a sat phone doesn't do anything to speed up the process much, either....

Please read this thread, and especially links to COSPAS-SARAT and Beth Leonard's articles!!
You will learn a LOT, and many will be surprised at how long it can take (even in the best scenario) before anyone near you is notified of your emergency and someone is tasked to come to your assistance!
And, this why the second "S" in the GMDSS stands for "System"...'cause it is a "system"....and we pleasure boat sailors should be aware that the more parts of the "system" that we can use, the better off we are!!
Which is why I advocate using MF/HF-DSC as your additional Distress signaling device, as this does notify the RCC's as well as notifying all other vessels in range!!! (and, not to mention that you can also use MF/HF-DSC to signal other vessels, coast stations, etc. for NON-DISTRESS situations, which you cannot do with an EPIRB, and you cannot use a sat phone to call other vessels, nor random coast stations, 'cause you don't know their phone number, nor who/where any other vessels are!!)

EPIRB Activation? What happens/How to improve rescue odds

Of course, once we are beyond the USCG and Canadian Coast Guard helo range (~ 200 miles off the US Coasts), and beyond the coastal waters (> 20 miles) of many 1st world nations (UK, EU, AUS, NZ, etc.), any rescue is going to come from merchant vessels in your vicinity (or in some rare cases, int'l naval forces)....

And, here is where things take more time!!

And, while setting off 2 EPIRB's (or an EPIRB and PLB) at the same time is fine (and understood by the professionals at the RCC's to mean there is really an emergency), and if you do have 2 EPIRB's (or an EPIRB and PLB), setting them both off at the same time (or within minutes of each other) IS the proper way to use them (and leave them BOTH on, and transmitting, until safely on-board your rescue vessel or instructed to turn them off by the RCC!!)
BUT..

But, understand that this doesn't do anything to alert other vessels in your vicinity....remember that a container ship traveling at 24 kts can cover about 600nm in one 24 day...
So, using BOTH MF/HF-DSC Distress calling AND VHF-DSC Distress calling, is what is needed to alert other vessels within a few hours, or a day's, sail from your location, and using DSC (MF/HF-DSC) will also alert the RCC's that there is a vessel in distress....
Remember, there are > 80 HF-DSC coast stations, and > 450 MF-DSC coast stations, worldwide, listening for DSC Distress calls and tied directly to their RCC's...
As well as 1000's of SOLAS-grade vessels plying the world oceans 365 days a year....and if you're sailing in/thru the common cruising areas / routes, you are probably within a day's sail of dozens of them...

EPIRB Activation? What happens/How to improve rescue odds


In general...
If you do things right, make both VHF-DSC and MF/HF-DSC distress calls, along with a properly registered EPIRB activation (and if equipped, an INMARSAT-C GMDSS distress alert):
a) If you are in coastal waters, chances are you'll not spend much time in a liferaft...(less than a day?)
b) If you are within helo rescue range, etc., then expect to spend a day or less in a raft...
c) If well offshore, but still within a few hundred miles (</= 500 miles) of merchant shipping, expect to spend 1 to 2 days in the raft...
d) If in far remote areas, where you are > 500-1000 miles from merchant shipping, and where naval forces will likely be used, expect to spend a few days in the raft...

Now, if you don't do things right, don't have MF/HF-DSC, and/or don't get your EPIRB deployed correctly (please read the linked thread), you're going to be in a raft for a while...
EPIRB Activation? What happens/How to improve rescue odds


BTW, if you wish to see where the merchant shipping is, and compare their common routes to your planned sailing/cruising, have a look at this video...




And, in addition to the above thread on EPIRB's, for lots of info regarding Distress signaling, HF-DSC comms, etc., please take the time to watch these videos as well...
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...ga2zYuPozhUXZX




I hope this helps...

fair winds to all..

John
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