Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 19-07-2014, 11:39   #16
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 6
Re: Liferaft and remains of the "Munetra" discovered

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sailor_Hutch View Post
It's the newcomers to the area who are making all the headlines (Nina is another example.
The Nina was a well found boat, lovingly restored by a man with a prior business involving marine repair and construction wherein he had earned a reputation for meticulous workmanship. He was aware of the 'weather window' but for safety reasons did not want to ''cross the ditch" without an engine.

He had a sextant that cost more than most GPS devices cost. The very experienced yachtsman who joined them was a spot on navigator and retired professor of mathematics.

Even 19 year old Danielle Wright was an experienced blue water sailor.

Of the two Brits aboard one was a world traveler with considerable survival training.

I would have wanted a personal beacon but that is not to say that a less electronic boat is unsafe.
__________________

__________________
FoolsGold is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-07-2014, 11:42   #17
Long Range Cruiser
 
MarkJ's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Australian living on "Sea Life" currently in England.
Boat: Beneteau 393 "Sea Life"
Posts: 12,828
Images: 25
Re: Liferaft and remains of the "Munetra" discovered

Quote:
Originally Posted by FoolsGold View Post
.

his lack of experience, his disdain for formal sailing instruction, his lack of skills, his lack of familiarity with local waters and local seasonal wind conditions.
And takes the lives of two teenage girls.

Terrible.
__________________

__________________
Notes on a Circumnavigation.
OurLifeAtSea.com

Somalia Pirates and our Convoy
MarkJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-07-2014, 11:48   #18
Registered User
 
Sailor_Hutch's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Dreaming - through the bars to the Chesapeake... Land cabin: near Raleigh, North Carolina
Posts: 461
Re: Liferaft and remains of the "Munetra" discovered

Quote:
Originally Posted by FoolsGold View Post
The Nina was a well found boat, lovingly restored by a man with a prior business involving marine repair and construction wherein he had earned a reputation for meticulous workmanship. He was aware of the 'weather window' but for safety reasons did not want to ''cross the ditch" without an engine.

He had a sextant that cost more than most GPS devices cost. The very experienced yachtsman who joined them was a spot on navigator and retired professor of mathematics.

Even 19 year old Danielle Wright was an experienced blue water sailor.

Of the two Brits aboard one was a world traveler with considerable survival training.

I would have wanted a personal beacon but that is not to say that a less electronic boat is unsafe.
All the experience in the world won't help those who tempt the gods. And communication redundancy is in my book absolutely necessary!
__________________
Sailor_Hutch was born for water. His 130 pounds, well insulated, floats like a bouy. With webbed paws, he gracefully paddles - The Umbrella Man.
Sailor_Hutch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-07-2014, 12:48   #19
Registered User
 
Sailor_Hutch's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Dreaming - through the bars to the Chesapeake... Land cabin: near Raleigh, North Carolina
Posts: 461
Re: Liferaft and remains of the "Munetra" discovered

I don't mean to diminish the capabilities of the Nina's captain - surely he was an accomplished sailor. However; a few little things possibly brought about a bad ending in that situation, or perhaps contributed to it. They had only the sat phone for voice communications beyond the (relatively) short VHF range. They carried a SPOT device, but one of the crew admitted that it may not have had good coverage in the area they were sailing. They had no SSB (Ham, or Maritime). And they carried an EPIRB of the old style (Without GPS). According to the SAR report, it is not known if they had a way to generate electricity (outside of an engine generator). It's possible they did not have alternate power means (guessed from pictures taken of the boat). It is not known how many spare batteries they had for the sat phone, at least I haven't read anything that indicated the number of spares they may have had, if any. And - that particular area of the world requires serious attention to weather windows. Did they give the weather window serious (enough) attention? The result might suggest an answer, right? In the navy, the captain is always responsible for *anything* and everything. It's where the buck stops.

Most of these "little things" could perhaps be seen as things within the captain's sphere of responsibility.
__________________
Sailor_Hutch was born for water. His 130 pounds, well insulated, floats like a bouy. With webbed paws, he gracefully paddles - The Umbrella Man.
Sailor_Hutch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-07-2014, 17:29   #20
Registered User
 
Muckle Flugga's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Aboard the Ocean wave
Boat: 55' sloop.
Posts: 1,426
Re: Liferaft and remains of the "Munetra" discovered

To give you an idea of just how bad a severe wind over tide can be in the Foveaux strait, these waters have only just been adequately surveyed, and it required missile guidance tech, due to the CONSTANT large Southern Ocean swells, in any state of wind. The strait has been called the most difficult stretch of water to survey, anywhere in the world:

https://www.niwa.co.nz/news/rescue-v...foveaux-strait

As I said, not a place for happy fools.
__________________
Muckle Flugga is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-07-2014, 18:06   #21
Registered User
 
Muckle Flugga's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Aboard the Ocean wave
Boat: 55' sloop.
Posts: 1,426
Re: Liferaft and remains of the "Munetra" discovered

Quote:
Originally Posted by FoolsGold View Post
The Nina was a well found boat, lovingly restored by a man with a prior business involving marine repair and construction wherein he had earned a reputation for meticulous workmanship. He was aware of the 'weather window' but for safety reasons did not want to ''cross the ditch" without an engine.

He had a sextant that cost more than most GPS devices cost. The very experienced yachtsman who joined them was a spot on navigator and retired professor of mathematics.

Even 19 year old Danielle Wright was an experienced blue water sailor.

Of the two Brits aboard one was a world traveler with considerable survival training.

I would have wanted a personal beacon but that is not to say that a less electronic boat is unsafe.
I am wondering where you got this information? I personally know and have worked with numerous professionals in Opua who would differ from you strikingly on those points. Among them is a career professional wooden boat builder who dinghied past the Nina every morning and evening for several months prior to her departure. He had also been aboard and knew the Dyches.

He told me it was a "tired old boat" which was "obviously hogged" and likely had numerous split frames.

The skipper himself acknowledged that the keel was MOVING, and he dismissed this worry with a gesture at the idea that a little "keel wag" was ok.

The vessel had not been hauled in 3 years. Ashby's boatyard offered a haul FREE OF CHARGE as they were so concerned about the obvious state of the vessel and the aforementioned fact. The skipper refused.

I dinghied past "Wonderland", Evie Nemeth's now ghost vessel, still on a mooring, still with its little solar anchor light glowing. I thought about the Nina a lot.

Can you tell me where you are getting your information?
__________________
Muckle Flugga is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-07-2014, 20:33   #22
Long Range Cruiser
 
MarkJ's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Australian living on "Sea Life" currently in England.
Boat: Beneteau 393 "Sea Life"
Posts: 12,828
Images: 25
Re: Liferaft and remains of the "Munetra" discovered

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sailor_Hutch View Post
That particular area of the world requires serious attention to weather windows. Did they give the weather window serious (enough) attention?

No they did not. Nina did not sail in the correct season. They were late and sailed into the wrong season.

Similarly with this tragedy. They sailed into the wrong season, the wrong weather.

2 boats, 9 killed for the stupidity of their skippers.

Never sail in the wrong season. You are not 'tempting the gods' you are being a fool and killing innocent people.
__________________
Notes on a Circumnavigation.
OurLifeAtSea.com

Somalia Pirates and our Convoy
MarkJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-07-2014, 01:39   #23
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 6
Re: Liferaft and remains of the "Munetra" discovered

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkJ View Post
Never sail in the wrong season. You are not 'tempting the gods' you are being a fool and killing innocent people.
With the Munetra the Captain was clearly a novice sailor in an ill equipped boat killing the young, innocent and nautically ignorant. Tourism is a large industry in NZ and so less is made of this than perhaps it should be. Two young girls met a fellow German who milked cows and happened to own a boat but was by no means a competent sailor in any waters was extremely over confidant and non compliant with advice from anyone.

The Nina was surrounded by the nautically experienced though it did sail a tad past the official window due to a safety motivated desire to have the engine installed. I've heard the term "hogged" from only one man there and believe that while he has not formally retracted his statement he has backed off from it considerably.

Communication redundancy is highly desirable. Their was no solar panel though considering the weather this might not be relevant. The EPIRB was old (battery strength?) and had to be manually activated to send a non GPS coded signal. Remember they were bound for Lord Howe Island and had far more electronic goodies than Lord Howe ever had. The SPOT system retained the composed but not sent message due to low signal strength but even that message showed no great concern for their situation.
__________________
FoolsGold is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-07-2014, 19:17   #24
Registered User
 
Muckle Flugga's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Aboard the Ocean wave
Boat: 55' sloop.
Posts: 1,426
Re: Liferaft and remains of the "Munetra" discovered

Quote:
Originally Posted by FoolsGold View Post
With the Munetra the Captain was clearly a novice sailor in an ill equipped boat killing the young, innocent and nautically ignorant. Tourism is a large industry in NZ and so less is made of this than perhaps it should be. Two young girls met a fellow German who milked cows and happened to own a boat but was by no means a competent sailor in any waters was extremely over confidant and non compliant with advice from anyone.

The Nina was surrounded by the nautically experienced though it did sail a tad past the official window due to a safety motivated desire to have the engine installed. I've heard the term "hogged" from only one man there and believe that while he has not formally retracted his statement he has backed off from it considerably.

Communication redundancy is highly desirable. Their was no solar panel though considering the weather this might not be relevant. The EPIRB was old (battery strength?) and had to be manually activated to send a non GPS coded signal. Remember they were bound for Lord Howe Island and had far more electronic goodies than Lord Howe ever had. The SPOT system retained the composed but not sent message due to low signal strength but even that message showed no great concern for their situation.
May I ask again: do you know anyone involved? Are you Kiwi? The guy who used that term in the media was from Whangerei. The career wood boatbuilder who I spoke of was NOT him, but rather is a North American living in Opua. But he was not the only one. Pretty much everyone I spoke to there said exactly the same thing: the Nina was in poor condition. She badly needed an overhaul. She had not been hauled in three years. The keel was MOVING. The skipper may have been a good "traditional" seaman, but he was out of money, and I for one believe, on very good evidence, that he let his dedication to his piece of fine antique boat furniture get the better of his judgement. He chose to move her on in a poor condition when only boats in exceptional condition should leave NZ across the Tasman in June.
__________________
Muckle Flugga is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-07-2014, 04:42   #25
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 6
Re: Liferaft and remains of the "Munetra" discovered

You may well be right, that a skilled craftsman is too close to his work of art to be a fair judge of it.

I doubt finances were a problem though, he made about 125,000 as Captain of an anchor boat off Brazil.
__________________
FoolsGold is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-07-2014, 05:31   #26
Senior Cruiser
 
hpeer's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Philadelphia
Boat: Murray 33-Chouette & Pape Steelmaid-44-Safara-both steel cutters
Posts: 3,900
Re: Liferaft and remains of the "Munetra" discovered

$125,000 is just appetizer money on even a moderate size boat. I would guess that a full refit on a Nina size boat addressing any serious hogging could cost near ten times as much.

I have no knowledge of the particulars, but know what my salary allows me to do, and it ain't much.
__________________
hpeer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-07-2014, 07:14   #27
Registered User
 
Rustic Charm's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Tasmania, Australia
Boat: Bieroc 36 foot Ketch
Posts: 4,898
Re: Liferaft and remains of the "Munetra" discovered

Quote:
Originally Posted by hpeer View Post
$125,000 is just appetizer money on even a moderate size boat. I would guess that a full refit on a Nina size boat addressing any serious hogging could cost near ten times as much.

I have no knowledge of the particulars, but know what my salary allows me to do, and it ain't much.
Ten times hey? That's like $1250000, just on maintenance. You don't think your exaggerating just a bit?
__________________
Rustic Charm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-07-2014, 10:25   #28
Senior Cruiser
 
hpeer's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Philadelphia
Boat: Murray 33-Chouette & Pape Steelmaid-44-Safara-both steel cutters
Posts: 3,900
Re: Liferaft and remains of the "Munetra" discovered

Quote:
Originally Posted by tedsherrin View Post
Ten times hey? That's like $1250000, just on maintenance. You don't think your exaggerating just a bit?
No, not just on maintenance, "to address serious hogging."

Not that it's a fair comparison but look at the Bluenose II. She was what, 30 years old? So they junked her and started over again and built a new boat.

Quote:
Bluenose II is more than two years behind schedule and close to $5 million above the original price tag of $14 million. There are also more than $4 million in outstanding receipts that are in dispute.
Bluenose II formally handed over to Nova Scotia | The Chronicle Herald

This is the new boat, also named Bluenose II. And she still can't be sailed.

My thought is that if a wooden boat is badly hogged you are gonna pay a significant fraction of the replacement value to fix her.

I don't know if Nina was hogged or not or how badly, I'm just say IF she was badly hogged the price tag for a fix is a whole bunch more than a family guys salary, even at $125,000. That would take seriously deep pockets.
__________________
hpeer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-07-2014, 11:17   #29
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 6
Re: Liferaft and remains of the "Munetra" discovered

This thread concerns the Munetra incident, not the Nina or any other vessel.

Any hogging of the Nina would be observed by experienced yachtsmen including the very experienced navigator who signed on after having examined the Nina.
__________________
FoolsGold is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-07-2014, 16:14   #30
Registered User
 
Rustic Charm's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Tasmania, Australia
Boat: Bieroc 36 foot Ketch
Posts: 4,898
Re: Liferaft and remains of the "Munetra" discovered

Look, I'll admit I know nothing about wooden boats. And I had to google to find out what 'hogging' means. But comparing a vessel of 160 feet, 284 S/tons and a $14m budget with one of 70 feet does not make a lot of sense to me.

But I get what your trying to say. Correcting a vessel that needs hogging is expensive. But then seems a bit odd if you also don't know how much 'hogging' is needing to be done. And it also seems that it's not known if correcting the 'hog' was even necessary.

But the last poster is correct, this is about the 'Munetra' and the two narratives are not in the least similar to me.
__________________

__________________
Rustic Charm is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
liferaft

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Boric Acid Remains in Watermaker Water Katiusha Plumbing Systems and Fixtures 32 21-01-2013 23:31
An Update on the Ship Discovered at Ground Zero Soundbounder General Sailing Forum 10 07-08-2011 17:32
Five-Masted Schooner Discovered Off Monomoy Soundbounder General Sailing Forum 2 09-09-2010 10:58
IgglePiggle Has Discovered a New Form of Power ! NYCSavage Off Topic Forum 1 17-08-2010 12:03
Life Happens - But the Dream Remains markpj23 General Sailing Forum 17 04-09-2006 22:50



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 01:50.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.