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Old 06-04-2013, 22:31   #16
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Re: Life lines - How to question...

Okay, but I didn't say anything about single-handing.
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Old 06-04-2013, 22:49   #17
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Re: Life lines - How to question...

Using the spinnaker halyard will be hilarious if you go over the side. What is more fun, dragging along behind the boat or swinging around in the air bashing into boat and water alike? Post a GoPro video of your test results.
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Old 06-04-2013, 22:52   #18
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Re: Life lines - How to question...

How about two webbing jacklines. One running from stern starboard cleat to bow port cleat. And another the opposite way. Forming an "X" across the whole length of the boat, crossing near the mast. Hook up wherever is safest given where you are working?
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Old 07-04-2013, 03:52   #19
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Re: Life lines - How to question...

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobconnie View Post
no way will I or my crew go in the water! just my 2 cents
Lets hope the Sea Gods don't read CF .

My take is that life is not without risk - including on boats. and IMO no jackline system will ever be perfect, albeit some less perfect than others! - but I think that on this something is better than nothing as a precaution (with the goal being to prevent getting in the oggin even though tied on), unless it is horrendously complicated and / or unduly restricts free movement.

Not mentioned is also having secure fixed points in the cockpit to clip on when not going anywhere - for that 1 off event that would go very badly, ideally in reach of crew before they get into the cockpit from below.
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Old 07-04-2013, 10:34   #20
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Re: Life lines - How to question...

^^

The "there is no such thing as perfect" is certaintly true here (as it also is on the emergency pumps thread).

Regarding jack lines, the trick to to get a system that you will actually use in advance, in the situations where you are most likely to get tossed over. It needs to be relatively easy and relatively convenient and relatively comfortable, or you may not use it.

Once you have something you find easy and convenient and comfortable enough for you . . . Then the big big deal is o develop the skill to anticipate ahead of time when you might get into an " unstable position". For us, this means whenever we have a real chance of solid green water on deck (big funny shaped waves in current or shallows, upwind into gale force waves, etc), we have a real chance of more than say a 45 degree knock over (breaking waves, strong squalls, driving hard downwind in big waves, etc), and whenever we are doing something inherently unstable (dealing with the end of the spin pole out over the pulpit, dealing with the boom over the hard dodger, etc). Others might add when recovery might be particularily slow or difficult (at night in the rain). Again the key here is to develop the skill of anticipation.

Some of this depends a lot on the crew and how stable they are. Beth and I have better "sea legs" than many cruisers who have less sea time. I have much better balance and am more graceful than Beth. I certaintly can still make a mistake and go over, but the risk assessment and trade-offs have to incorporate the crew capability.
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Old 07-04-2013, 11:17   #21
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Re: Life lines - How to question...

Agree - one of the issues with jacklines, tethers, harness/PFDs, etc, is knowing when to use them. Different people have different guidelines: "At night", "When it gets rough", "When we have a reef in", etc. My personal policy is we use the PFDs unless we are at dock or anchor, and the jacklines/tethers when we are at sea. In San Francisco that was easy: we were at sea when we were west of the Golden Gate Bridge. Now that I'm in the PNW I will have to re-think that policy.

Sure, using this stuff all the time is a bit cumbersome, but not having to make that "when to wear" decision means that we all have practice doing our jobs with the gear on. I've had no complaints and have had crewmembers tell me many years later how much they appreciated the policy. We all know, or know of, people who have died because (probably) they weren't wearing the tethers in what had been not-too-bad conditions.

Occasionally I relax the "tethers at sea" policy, but these occasions are the careful exceptions, not the rule.

So, this policy works for me. I suggest that whatever policy you choose be simple and obvious, and that you get sufficient practice with the gear so that you're not getting tangled up when you do wear it.

P.S. -- One of the reasons for my strict policy is that I sometimes do ocean racing, where there is a bit of a macho culture. Nobody wants to be the first one to put on their safety gear. On a cruising boat the dynamics may be different.
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Old 07-04-2013, 12:37   #22
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I'd also suggest a crotch strap on the harness if you don't have one. It's easy to slip from a harness being lifted.

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Old 07-04-2013, 12:49   #23
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Re: Life lines - How to question...

^^

Yes, agreed . . . however . . . The ISAF and marine world has struggled with crotch straps. Right now they are required (by the ISAF OSR's . . . for racing) for PDFs, but interesting not for harnesses. For PDF's they are primarily to keep the inflated bladder held down and not allow it to float up to your head . . . .so for that the crotch straps can be relatively weak, and they are in fact not designed to pick you up with. Many of the pdf crotch straps have little flimsy plastic bits, and they have broken in the real world in several cases where they were used to pick someone up. When Rambler capsized every crewmember had a pdf with crotch strap, but none (zero) were using the crotch straps (they all had them tucked up under their belts).

They (ISAF and ISO) have no idea at all of how to spec harness crotch straps which might see real shock loads, and if they did figure it out they would likely be so clumsy that no-one would ever wear them.

Someone needs to solve this problem, because there is NOT a good (both dead quick and easy to put on and off, and strong enough) product on the market today, and ISAF and ISO are not going to solve it any time soon.

I use a climbing harness quite a bit when I am working bow, but they are considered to clumsy and slow to put on and off, for 'regular use'.
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Old 07-04-2013, 13:01   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by estarzinger View Post
^^

Yes, agreed . . . however . . . The ISAF and marine world has struggled with crotch straps. Right now they are required (by the ISAF OSR's . . . for racing) for PDFs, but interesting not for harnesses. For PDF's they are primarily to keep the inflated bladder held down and not allow it to float up to your head . . . .so for that the crotch straps can be relatively weak, and they are in fact not designed to pick you up with. Many of the pdf crotch straps have little flimsy plastic bits, and they have broken in the real world in several cases where they were used to pick someone up. When Rambler capsized every crewmember had a pdf with crotch strap, but none (zero) were using the crotch straps (they all had them tucked up under their belts).

They (ISAF and ISO) have no idea at all of how to spec harness crotch straps which might see real shock loads, and if they did figure it out they would likely be so clumsy that no-one would ever wear them.

Someone needs to solve this problem, because there is NOT a good (both dead quick and easy to put on and off, and strong enough) product on the market today, and ISAF and ISO are not going to solve it any time soon.

I use a climbing harness quite a bit when I am working bow, but they are considered to clumsy and slow to put on and off, for 'regular use'.
I agree on the lifting part but this is also a risk if sailing over 5 knots and getting pulled. I want to give myself the best odds of staying on board but if I don't I want the best odds of getting back on board. Here was an interesting thread with some add on thigh straps.

Universal Inflatable PFD Thigh Straps

I just wanted to offer this thought to be considered. It is absolutely your call.
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Old 08-04-2013, 17:31   #25
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Re: Life lines - How to question...

Thanks to all who replied and shared their knowledge/know how...

Now I know better; how to do what...

When it is relatively calm seas (with our way of sailing) I'll use the spinnaker halyard with wife getting the slack as I go fore...

When at high seas and bad weather I'll tether myself to whatever I feel firmest and safest depending on where I'm on the boat, and move step by step forward and repeat the same... Much like a climber does when he climbs a mountain. And it will certainly help to carry two shackled lines on my harness for that purpose, as I first attach the spare and then detach the former...

One important thing I need to keep in mind while attaching myself to where I choose fit will be; to think what happens to me when/if I slip and fall overboard with my harness attached to where it is currently attached...

Will I fall in water and be dragged alongside or will i just stay on deck with a broken hip or will I swing around and around forming a spiral closeness to the mast...

Thanks again to all who answered...
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Old 08-04-2013, 18:32   #26
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Re: Life lines - How to question...

I wanna hear about the results of the halyard experiment in large seas.
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Old 08-04-2013, 19:13   #27
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Re: Life lines - How to question...

I like the two line idea !If i were to drown the wife would get the insurance check sooner at least , just trying to think of others you know!
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Old 09-04-2013, 18:08   #28
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Re: Life lines - How to question...

I collected some thoughts here: Jacklines
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