Life Jacket with Drysuit?

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Thanks, and I'm oriented towards your advice on this, which I read very carefully in the other thread.

I will buy a wetsuit hood with face gasket, and I found today a pair of neoprene wetsuit boots right here in Cowes. I have no idea whether the hood will be comfortable for wearing for long periods on passage, but we'll see.

I will receive the Boss week after next and I will surely test it in the water, and report.

Hoods. What I have used both kayaking and sailing in crappy weather, and what the Volvo guys wear, are sea kayaking baclavas. I think you will find they are comfortable enough and warm enough. A good compromise for deck wear. A few Scandinavian makers and a few in the Pacific Northwest.

I agree that some manner of PFD is smart, but the question of what should be designed to go with a dry suit remains open. For example, immersion suits are worn without PFDs because they include flotation, but most (all?) have some manner of bladder to support the head.

And realistically, if we go overboard in a "flying water" condition in icy water, we're dead. It really is that simple. Who's kidding who here? The Volvo and Clipper experiences are what started this. I wear a dry suit in case I trip over my own stupid feet in moderate conditions, for in-water work, and for kayaking.

(I'm 4 hours into a test that included swimming 200 yards, boarding a raft several times, climbing ladders, and jumping into the water from 3 meters 4 times. No air lost and no water in the suit. I've been in the water 4 hours out of 6 hours. I did not add air. Yes, the suit would be meta stable face down, but it is stable face up.)

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by thinwater

Hoods. What I have used both kayaking and sailing in crappy weather, and what the Volvo guys wear, are sea kayaking baclavas. I think you will find they are comfortable enough and warm enough. A good compromise for deck wear. A few Scandinavian makers and a few in the Pacific Northwest.

I agree that some manner of PFD is smart, but the question of what should be designed to go with a dry suit remains open. For example, immersion suits are worn without PFDs because they include flotation, but most (all?) have some manner of bladder to support the head.

And realistically, if we go overboard in a "flying water" condition in icy water, we're dead. It really is that simple. Who's kidding who here? The Volvo and Clipper experiences are what started this. I wear a dry suit in case I trip over my own stupid feet in moderate conditions, for in-water work, and for kayaking.

(I'm 4 hours into a test that included swimming 200 yards, boarding a raft several times, climbing ladders, and jumping into the water from 3 meters 4 times. No air lost and no water in the suit. I've been in the water 4 hours out of 6 hours. I did not add air. Yes, the suit would be meta stable face down, but it is stable face up.)

OK, but you're without any PFD in the photo, right?


Let's drill into this statement:

"And realistically, if we go overboard in a "flying water" condition in icy water, we're dead. It really is that simple. Who's kidding who here? The Volvo and Clipper experiences are what started this."

I certainly don't want to try it, but why does this necessarily need to be the case?

You've shown yourself that you can survive for hours in icy water in a dry suit. If you've got an AIS MOB beacon (I've been carrying one of those for years) and a PLB, then you're not going to just get lost.

So even if it takes a couple of hours for the boat to get back to you, then it's just a question of getting you back on board, isn't it? Also a serious challenge in strong weather, but not inherently impossible, no?

Why do you think this is inherently unsurvivable?

[JohnHutchins]

Originally Posted by thinwater

Hoods. What I have used both kayaking and sailing in crappy weather, and what the Volvo guys wear, are sea kayaking baclavas. I think you will find they are comfortable enough and warm enough. A good compromise for deck wear. A few Scandinavian makers and a few in the Pacific Northwest.

I agree that some manner of PFD is smart, but the question of what should be designed to go with a dry suit remains open. For example, immersion suits are worn without PFDs because they include flotation, but most (all?) have some manner of bladder to support the head.

And realistically, if we go overboard in a "flying water" condition in icy water, we're dead. It really is that simple. Who's kidding who here? The Volvo and Clipper experiences are what started this. I wear a dry suit in case I trip over my own stupid feet in moderate conditions, for in-water work, and for kayaking.

(I'm 4 hours into a test that included swimming 200 yards, boarding a raft several times, climbing ladders, and jumping into the water from 3 meters 4 times. No air lost and no water in the suit. I've been in the water 4 hours out of 6 hours. I did not add air. Yes, the suit would be meta stable face down, but it is stable face up.)

What's the book?

And question -- is the neck gasket trimmed for all day comfort? I'd worry about the ability of my neck gasket to retain air in even moderately rough conditions now that it's trimmed down to a realistic tightness (I've fortunately not capsized in such conditions so all the experience I have is in water that looks like the water in your picture and it's floaty. But when I release the air it's different. I always purge the air from my drysuit when I put it on and wear the same pfd I wear when I'm not in a drysuit (the drysuit or not choice is a dinghy sailing v keelboat sailing question for me as here the water is always cold enough to warrant it. If I had the cool convertible ocean rodeo one I might always be in a drysuit).

[OrinocoFlo]

Thinwater and my husband Ken have been recommending Ocean Rodeo drysuits for over a year now; just wondering why it’s taken so long for some of you to accept the idea of wearing one?

We wear a self-inflating lifevest with integral harness and crotch strap with the Ocean Rodeo Ignite. We don’t need the integral bladder of the Boss suit, because we wear the lifevests anyway which renders the bladder redundant and therefore a waste of money. Both drysuits (Ignite and Boss) share the same adjustable collar with neoprene and polartec.

Would you now care to discuss shoes? If so, we wear the Gill Aero boots in neoprene. Or how about MOB rescue devices? We use a Lifesling.

We also stuff a neoprene scuba head cover into the Ignite jacket pocket if the conditions get extreme, because it would be insanely impractical to hang out on deck wearing one. You can’t hear anything when wearing one. How do we know this? When Ken scuba dives in his, he can’t hear anything.

Pam

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by JohnHutchins

What's the book?

And question -- is the neck gasket trimmed for all day comfort? I'd worry about the ability of my neck gasket to retain air in even moderately rough conditions now that it's trimmed down to a realistic tightness (I've fortunately not capsized in such conditions so all the experience I have is in water that looks like the water in your picture and it's floaty. But when I release the air it's different. I always purge the air from my drysuit when I put it on and wear the same pfd I wear when I'm not in a drysuit (the drysuit or not choice is a dinghy sailing v keelboat sailing question for me as here the water is always cold enough to warrant it. If I had the cool convertible ocean rodeo one I might always be in a drysuit).

One reason why I chose the Boss over the Ignite, is that the Boss has an adjustable neoprene neck seal, whereas the Ignite has to be cut to size. I a sensitive to pressure around my neck (and suffered through half a lifetime of wearing ties) and would hate not to be able to regulate that. May be different for others.

Concerning purging air and your PFD -- but why purge the air? Isn't it useful to have some buoyancy from the suit, even if you're wearing a PFD?

[JohnHutchins]

If makes it easy to move in the water and the PFD keeps the air where you want it and the drysuit might -- depending on how you fall in -- leave air and bouyancy where you don't want it.

[OrinocoFlo]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

One reason why I chose the Boss over the Ignite, is that the Boss has an adjustable neoprene neck seal, whereas the Ignite has to be cut to size. I a sensitive to pressure around my neck (and suffered through half a lifetime of wearing ties) and would hate not to be able to regulate that. May be different for others.

Concerning purging air and your PFD -- but why purge the air? Isn't it useful to have some buoyancy from the suit, even if you're wearing a PFD?

Wrong.

The Ocean Rodeo Ignite shares the same adjustable neoprene and polartec neck as the Boss model. Maybe the old style Ignite used a gasket style, but not the newest model.

Pam

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by JohnHutchins

What's the book?

And question -- is the neck gasket trimmed for all day comfort? I'd worry about the ability of my neck gasket to retain air in even moderately rough conditions now that it's trimmed down to a realistic tightness (I've fortunately not capsized in such conditions so all the experience I have is in water that looks like the water in your picture and it's floaty. But when I release the air it's different. I always purge the air from my drysuit when I put it on and wear the same pfd I wear when I'm not in a drysuit (the drysuit or not choice is a dinghy sailing v keelboat sailing question for me as here the water is always cold enough to warrant it. If I had the cool convertible ocean rodeo one I might always be in a drysuit).

Foundation, by Issac Asimov. I'd read it before. I thought it would make a good photo, and I was bored.

Yes, you really can trim the neck seal a good bit. I wear this one all day, both sailing and kayaking. For me, the key it that it not pinch my adam's apple. They also loosen with time, so stuff something in it, like a 2-liter soda bottle, for a few weeks. Best to do it by degrees to get it just so. Trim the wrist seals too. Use very sharp scissors. I don't know about adjustable seals, but the Volvo guys seem to go with latex seals; I suspect they are more leak proof, but I'm sure the Boss is good.

If I'm sailing I squat and purge some of the air. If you don't purge some of the air they are bulky. If I'm diving, I go down the ladder and let water pressure help remove the rest(the seal is on the shoulder).

Ocean Rodeo has changed the features and colors around a bit over the years. I'm sure they all do. Check current information.

[LakeSuperior]

Originally Posted by Steadman Uhlich

What follows is written in a friendly tone of voice, and added to continue the discussion.
_____________________

You are using a particular type of drysuit, and from your description, it sounds like it was designed for SCUBA diving.

There are different types of drysuits.

My first question is what exactly is the one model you are using or suggesting?
Please post a photo of it and name of it.
Secondly, what is the cost?

Some are not intended for SCUBA diving. Some do not have mechanisms (e.g. tubes, connections or valves) for adding air when worn (e.g. from a SCUBA tank).

For those that do NOT have an air tube (or valve for adding air) to add air to the suit, what do you propose to do to add that needed air while you are in the water as a MOB?

The kind of drysuit I would be wearing on a sailboat is not necessarily the same as what you may have been wearing while SCUBA diving.

So, while your point is that your suit has buoyancy when you add air to it, that may only apply to your particular type of suit that is designed with a valve for connecting a low pressure air tube from a SCUBA tank.

My Point: Other suits may have the same ability to trap air inside (increasing buoyancy), but they may have no easy way to add the air to the suit if the MOB is in the water.

And, even if you do add air to your dry suit, there still may be a problem with depending upon that type of suit alone.

A key issue with drysuits is that any air that is trapped in the suit may travel to the legs, raising the legs to the surface (higher than core of body). This may not seem critical if one is just waiting a few minutes for a dive boat to pick one up.

But consider the position of the head as the MOB lies there on their back, with their head back (no PFD). And that assumes the MOB is conscious. What happens if wearing just a dry suit and the MOB is unconscious? Would they float face up or down? Using a good PFD solves that by rotating the body to a face up position.

The critical need for a MOB is to have the HEAD (airways) as high as possible, for possibly extended time (we hope we can survive for several hours at least).

So I maintain that having a PFD of high buoyancy, in addition to the dry suit, would be preferable to depending upon only a drysuit, wetsuit, flotation coat, or similar for buoyancy.

That is my choice, with my life. You can choose different.
_________________

Here is a friendly, sincere suggestion:

Since you have a drysuit you are convinced is the answer for you, take some photos of you in it without any other SCUBA gear, and post those in this thread.

My first question is: Would that suit would be comfortable to wear for prolonged periods (days) for a typical sailor? It may be properly designed for SCUBA, but "overkill" for sailing.

Enter the water without adding air to the suit prior to jumping in the water (as if you were a sailor who was wearing it and became an accidental MOB).

Before adding any extra air to the suit, pretend you are unconscious. Have a friend roll you over so you are face down in the water. Remain unmoving (no use of hands or feet). Will the air that is in your dry suit roll you face up, or rise to the back of the suit, keeping you face down?

Show how you would add air to the suit without a SCUBA tank, while in the water, cold water.

Then make sure you show how high your face is when you are on your back (without lead weights etc.).

Then explain how you would add air to a drysuit that does not have the tubes or mechanism for adding air from a tank.

That should show how YOUR drysuit may work for you and could help others see your point.

Steady, you are trying to hard. Again I'll remind you that I have spent 35 years of steady diving in a dry suit. I'll submit that I know more about dry suits than you do so forgo the tutorial.

Relative to your friendly, sincere suggestion, do you seriously want me to do a illustrated program on the characteristics and use of a dry suit for you. You don't want to pay my hourly rate.

A membrane dry suit is a dry suit is a dry suit. They pretty much all work the same. The Boss has a manual inflator hose. Why would you purchase a dry suit designed for sailing that did not have a means to inflate?

Put your legs down the air flows to the neck and shoulders and you are vertical.

If you're worried about being unconscious wear an inflatable horse collar with a spray shield and a crotch strap over the dry suit. I simply addressed your original assertion where you said that a dry suit probably did not have sufficient buoyancy. It sounded like you didn't know what you were talking about.

[boat driver]

I may have missed this interesting discussion and I will suggest that a number of comments about different suits and PFD's are interesting.

DRY SUITS and GUMBY(exposure) suits are TWO DIFFERENT things entirely.
Simply a Gumby Exposure suit is a full body life jacket for individual survival particularly in the higher latitudes. The suit is not a daily wear, it will float and protect anyone PROVIDED they can fit into it and zip up, (gotta practice emergency donning on your boat-not easy even in calm water and often overweight large people cannot zip up)

Dry suits are generally weather oriented protectors, not life saving particularly in colder water. Internal trapped air assists in buoyancy, not flotation foam.
Therefore- understand the equipment one is buying- and plan appropriately.

One note, particularly offshore where rescue may be distant. Inflatable equipment only works if 1) above freezing 2) all parts work 3) it is not ripped/chafed / or otherwise tube compromised. Particularly vulnerable if in vicinity of barnacles under the waterline, on pilings, or vicinity of exit options from the water.

Nothing is 100% perfect and redundancy is better, but most of all understand and practice with the equipment before the emergency.

[thinwater]

Shoes. I wear zip-up wet suit boots, not because they are best or because I cared what would be best overboard, but because I had them and I do like them on wet decks. They also add some warmth. I'm sure deck shoes (up 1-2 sizes) would be as good or better. You don't want boots. You do want room for 2 pairs of socks (1 liner, one fleece).

[estarzinger]

^^ I wore either similar zip up wetsuit boots, or my dunlop thermo boots, which if anyone need some are simply the best cold weather deck boots one can ever own.

[LakeSuperior]

Originally Posted by boat driver

Dry suits are generally weather oriented protectors, not life saving particularly in colder water. Internal trapped air assists in buoyancy, not flotation foam.
Therefore- understand the equipment one is buying- and plan appropriately.

The reality is the dry suit is probably the best and only chance for extended survival in cold water.

It buys the user significant critical time. Cannot quote numbers but a membrane dry suit worn with a medium to heavy thinsulate undergarment will buy the user hours not 10s of minutes after going overboard in 32 degree F water (sorry not much experience in 28 degree F salt water).

Would I wear one for cold water yachting? Probably only for special occasions as it is difficult to regulate the thermal and physical comfort level. Small boat sailors and kayakers have success wearing them for extended periods so maybe they can be made servicable.

[Steadman Uhlich]

[/SIZE]

Originally Posted by LakeSuperior

Steady, you are trying to hard. Again I'll remind you that I have spent 35 years of steady diving in a dry suit. I'll submit that I know more about dry suits than you do so forgo the tutorial.

Relative to your friendly, sincere suggestion, do you seriously want me to do a illustrated program on the characteristics and use of a dry suit for you. You don't want to pay my hourly rate.

A membrane dry suit is a dry suit is a dry suit. They pretty much all work the same. The Boss has a manual inflator hose. Why would you purchase a dry suit designed for sailing that did not have a means to inflate?

Put your legs down the air flows to the neck and shoulders and you are vertical.

If you're worried about being unconscious wear an inflatable horse collar with a spray shield and a crotch strap over the dry suit. I simply addressed your original assertion where you said that a dry suit probably did not have sufficient buoyancy. It sounded like you didn't know what you were talking about.

Sorry, but I don't think your answers really answer the key points I was trying to show, and may prove misleading to some people reading this thread. I see things differently from you, and my statements below are not meant in disrespect of you or your own experience or opinion. I simply think you are not answering the questions or points I made or misunderstanding my points or missing the distinction I see.

Let me see if I can make them more clear and respond to something else you wrote. Perhaps this will help us communicate more clearly.

1. My point: Not all dry suits are the same. Your response makes it sound like you think they are all the same.

2. Dry suits designed for SCUBA have different features, including purge valves to let air escape, in addition to hard point valves for adding air from a SCUBA air tank.

3. I don't need to dive for 35 years to know those two points above, nor to use logic and good sense and to see the distinction in different gear (e.g. Some is designed for sailing or surface water sports, some others are designed for deep SCUBA diving.)

4. Anyone who does dive would know that the valves for air input and purging are very important for SCUBA. But, they are not essential for dry suits that a sailor may choose to use.

5. The topic of this thread is about choosing a dry suit for use while high latitude sailing, not SCUBA, though obviously some sailors use their dry suits for wear while clearing their hulls, etc..

6. I think the focus should be on those suits designed for sailors and "surface" activities such as kiteboarding, kayaking, and use and wear and features, rather than other gear designed for SCUBA, or at least distinctions made. They are not the same.

7. The suggestion I made for you (or anyone who has a dry suit) is to do the test of whether their suit (and which suits specifically) would turn an unconscious MOB to a face up position AND keep the face airways high enough out of the water, without the use of some additional bouyancy device (e.g. Inflatable PFD) AND without adding additional air to them from some other required gear (e.g. SCUBA tank). And remember, not all dry suits have those valves and tubes. I think that would be informative.

8. I don't doubt that a typical dry suit would add some bouyancy to a body, because of the likelihood of some trapped air in any dry suit. I can float on my back in the ocean and am bouyant without anything at all other than the air in my lungs. But that is NOT the key issue I raised.

As I see it:

The key issue is whether the unconcious body when floating at the surface will have the face upright and whether the airways (nose/mouth) will be supported high enough above the surface to breathe and survive in rough water.

9. I think your "hourly rate" remark is silly, and simple deflection. Who cares what you are paid per hour? I don't. If you are willing or unwilling to do the test and show it, just say so and why. Your hourly rate has nothing to do with it, nor does your experience SCUBA diving or that of anyone.

As I see it: We are not talking about SCUBA diving. We are talking about a MOB sailor, who may be incapacitated or even unconcious, floating on the surface, dealing with rough water and spray and waves.

10. A newbie could do the same test I proposed, and if they do, I would see that as more valuable than bluster from anyone else.

11. If I owned such a suit, I would simply take it to my local pool, lake, or water and do some of the simple tests:

A. Does the MOB get turned to a face UP position without any assistance from the person?

B. Is the face (nose/mouth) supported high enough out of the water? The rough water tests would need to be done in the ocean and waves.

12. My hourly rate would have no bearing on my results. I would be happy to share those results with others, for no charge.

I hope that clears up some things.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by thinwater

Hoods. What I have used both kayaking and sailing in crappy weather, and what the Volvo guys wear, are sea kayaking baclavas. . . .

Something like this?

https://www.kayakacademy.com/product...iant=993336367