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Old 19-04-2017, 15:00   #1
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Jacklines et al for Tanzer 22

Hi:

This is the year I am going to get my jackline system done. I have a Tanzer 22 which I often solo, and occasionally sail cold air/water temperatures, and intend to occasionally night sail. Mostly Lake Ontario, but I'd like to go further afield eventually, say north channel of Lake Huron and even Lake Superior.

Given the inherent limitations of a 22 foot boat I want to get reasonably close to what one would have on a larger vessel, but recognize that it probably cannot be done to quite the same level. Seems to me a major limitation is that no practical length of tether on a boat this size is going to keep me out of the water. The beam at the bow business area is about 3 feet just behind the pulpit, so even a 3 foot tether anchored on the center line has me potentially wet. The best we can do I think is keep me attached to the boat.

Summary of existing gear: I have a harness with leg straps. I have a Mustang inflatable PFD with integrated tether points. I have a dual tether such that I can clip to a new spot before releasing previous spot. I have a Mustang one piece coverall which I believe is an older version of the MS2175, as well as a heavy weather bib pants and jacket. The cockpit is very secure with a pushpit, solar panel arch, and bimini frame and related lines. I have a pulpit, but do not have lifelines.

I intend to have a single piece of nylon webbing jackline (that is one half of the Plastimo 7 metre set) with the centre set in the 8 inch aluminum bow horn cleat. The horn cleat is installed with four 1/4 inch stainless screws and will have a backing plate installed to reinforce it. This will leave the two loop ends dangling about 9 inches into the cockpit about 7 feet from the transom. A further 2 feet aft of the loop ends are the genoa horn cleats which are mounted with two 5/16 SS screws and reinforced with a backing plate. (The genoa horn cleats are deprecated for genoa usage, as I usually use cam cleats now). The loops will be bridged the 2 feet to the cleats with 1/4 inch dyneema belayed around the horn cleats in the usual fashion with a cleat hitch as long as this is deemed secure. If not secure, I also have 1/8 inch dyneema and could lash the ends instead. Or maybe some other ideas?

I intend to have two padeyes in the cockpit. The first will be right at the companionway such that I can clip in before exiting the cabin. The second will be about the middle of the cockpit such that I can fuss with the outboard and not go over the transom. It is unclear whether I want these padeyes mounted to the cockpit floor, or the side walls close to the floor. Of course backing plates either way. I'd rather low on the side walls so I avoid a tripping hazard and do not need to penetrate a wood core, but the floor is a beefier starting point.

Lastly, I intend to leave a fixed custom length tether at the bow cleat and perhaps the mast too (all halyards at the mast). These will be 1/4 inch dyneema with Tylaskla T8 large bail trigger snap shackles. Unclear if I want 4-1/2 foot tether at the bow such that I can stand, or whittle that length down to about 3 feet such that I can get to things on my hands and knees only. The argument for 3 feet is that I will have 6 foot tether with me most (all?) of the time anyhow if I wish to stand. However even 3 feet allows me to drop into the water, so maybe stick with 4-1/2 feet for best convenience.

Any holes in my plans or suggestions?

Regards,

Boulter
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Old 19-04-2017, 16:51   #2
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Re: Jacklines et al for Tanzer 22

Sounds like a great set up. I'm not clear whether you have the life lines that were sold on some of the T22's. I sailed one in northern Lk Michigan / Traverse Bay for 8 years, certainly what you are talking about is doable.

Just sold most of my T22 gear to someone in Florida, I do have two mains and a spinnaker if any of that interested you.
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Old 19-04-2017, 19:35   #3
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Re: Jacklines et al for Tanzer 22

Had you considered something like these? http://http://marine.wichard.com/men...000000-ME.html

Fwiw, I was thinking you might like your jackline down the centerline of the boat. Since you double tether, strategically placed pad eyes could get you there.

Iirc, Evans Starzinger has written some posts about using non-stretchy line for tethers, and felt it was dangerous, can break you by stopping you too fast. Perhaps a CF Custom Google Search would help you find that.

Cheers,

Ann
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Old 20-04-2017, 09:27   #4
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Re: Jacklines et al for Tanzer 22

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate View Post
Had you considered something like these? http://http://marine.wichard.com/men...000000-ME.html

Fwiw, I was thinking you might like your jackline down the centerline of the boat. Since you double tether, strategically placed pad eyes could get you there.

Iirc, Evans Starzinger has written some posts about using non-stretchy line for tethers, and felt it was dangerous, can break you by stopping you too fast. Perhaps a CF Custom Google Search would help you find that.

Cheers,

Ann
Hi Ann:

Thank you for your suggestions.

I have folding padeyes, so if they are installed on the cockpit floor, they will be less of a hazard.

Most of my work above is based upon Mr. Starzinger's paper of 2013 "Jacklines, Clip-in Points and Tethers Improved designs and approaches"
in which he recommends Spectra which I believe is either the same material as dyneema, or at least has similar elasticity properties. Maybe I am wrong here. Anyhow it is an argument to go shorter at the bow and stay on my hands and knees.

I see your point about going down the center, but that creates issues. What I can do with the proposed system is clip the short tether to the near jackline and the long tether to the far one as they are only separated by about 4 feet at the most near the companionway.

Thanks again

Boulter
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Old 21-04-2017, 20:34   #5
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Re: Jacklines et al for Tanzer 22

Sounds like you're on the right track.

We had our jacklines running outboard, and when we were dismasted, I wished we'd had one down the center line. When the rig is down in the water, the bow pulpit squashed a bit, and no lifelines left on one side, you can feel fairly vulnerable. And, of course, your boat has none to begin with.

Ann
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Old 22-04-2017, 06:56   #6
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Re: Jacklines et al for Tanzer 22

^^ saw my prior paper referenced . . .thought I would clarify a couple things.

#1 regarding tethers - I believe I separated them into two categories - short work station tethers (fixed to hard points at work stations) and (longer) mobile tethers (the ones you take with you). Dyneema makes perfect sense for the fixed work station tethers - as their design/purpose is to be as short as possible while still allowing you to do the necessary work - so, done correctly, there is not much 'fall distance' possible.

For the longer mobile tethers there is a debate about the correct material. Thinwater has been the primary one on this board espousing a more elastic material. And his POV is consistent with the ISO test standard for tethers (which is a dynamic drop test). I am ambivalent about this issue. Thinwater is absolutely correct that in a particular situation elasticity is desired. However I don't see that particular situation being all that relevant/frequent in the sailing tether context. I personally used dyneema mobile tethers also, but there is definitely a valid reason for those who prefer a much more elastic solution (eg like 8mm climbing line - I just wish there was a good/better way to terminate climbing line).

#2 Please completely ignore the webbing loop sewing advice in that paper. It is just flat out dead wrong. I interviewed a couple sail makers and that is what they told me . . . but I then later did a lot of actual pull tests and it proved just completely wrong. With further research, and then more testing, I found that the parachute guys had nailed webbing sewing technique back in WW2 (apparently with a national/defense level science effort) - several 100% better than what is typically used in sailing webbing sewing . . . and for some reason that clearly defined set of best practices was never known/picked-up/used by the sailing community - part but not all of it is used in the climbing community, all of it is accepted best practice in the commercial heavy lifting sling community.

#3 Bottom line is that I am not much of a fan of the whole jackline concept as typically implemented on sailing boats. You really really want to stay on the boat, and it is really rather difficult to ensure that using the typical jackline concept. Centerline jacklines are 'better', but can be difficult to implement in a practical way. Quite honestly - those with a lot of blue water experience tend to not use jacklines/tethers so much and rely on other more basic ways to ensure they stay on board - (a tight grip with one hand at all times - one of the ways you can spot a true experienced seaman, low center of gravity, placing your feet carefully, good non-skid, ect). . . . to be careful, that is not to say experienced seamen dont ever use tethers - they do, but with judgement in particular situations when they simply are at more risk (like green water sweeping the decks) or can't exercise their usual practices (like they have to stand tall AND work with both hands over their heads to get something important done).
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Old 22-04-2017, 07:31   #7
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Re: Jacklines et al for Tanzer 22

Regarding sewing jacklines - I detailed the research and solutions on my website but that unfortunately is no more (for 'reasons') . . .

so, in very brief summery

1. The typical sailing 'sewn webbing loop' is surprisingly weaker than just a simple knotted loop in that webbing.

2. there are several sewn techniques that are much much better. Most of them require some skill/knowledge. But one is extremely simple, required no real skill/knowledge and produces excellent results (several time better than the normal sailing approach). It does require more webbing, but this can be weaker/cheaper webbing because it is so strong.

3. This simple approach is . . . to take a piece of webbing a bit more than twice the length you want your jackline to be (yes, it uses more webbing, but that webbing can be a bit weaker/cheaper because this solution is so strong) . . . . sew the two ends together (using bar tacks, or as close as you can get to bar tacks - examine a climbing sling to see what a good bar tack should look like) so that you have a loop of webbing, then leaving 'eyes' at each end whatever size you want, and leave the 'ends sewn together' in the middle, sew down the length of the loop so that the two parts are sewn together ( a couple rows of zig zag are great).

You end up with a double thickness of webbing with eyes are each end and the 'end join' in the middle. This solution places minimal and balanced load on the end to end join - and is 'about' twice as strong as the base webbing - exactly how strong depends on your care and skill - my testing suggested an amateur without special equipment can achieve 85-90%ish.

edit - as an aside . . .when I made jacklines like this, I also usually added some extra chafe protection inside the loops, because that is usually where I have seen wear/break point on jacklines that have been in use for sometime.
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Old 22-04-2017, 08:34   #8
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Re: Jacklines et al for Tanzer 22

Any thoughts, & or testing on using something like Regatta Braid, or 3-strand anchor line for tethers. Since both have some stretch to them, & are easy to splice.
Albeit I'm aware that there are quite a number of materials which work more than passably well for this. Just curious. And, yes, I reckon I'l draw heat from some for suggesting as much. Just as I do when I mention using Spectra. But...

One thing that's nice about DIY tethers is that you can keep them as short as is necessary to do the job/get around on the boat. So that there's less distance for you to accelerate should you lose your footing. And given that they're quite often a good bit shorter than 2m/6', you're more likely to stay onboard should you fall.
Plus my clip on, to work in place tether is rediculously short. Pretty much just enough to allow me to do chores at the mast while clipped to it, etc.
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Old 22-04-2017, 09:15   #9
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Re: Jacklines et al for Tanzer 22

Interesting topic! We rarely sail in jackline conditions, but sometimes it's unavoidable. Also, since I'm out solo quite a bit, I have sometimes thought about some basic precautions when having to go forward.

For one 'guys' weekend sail in May, several years ago (Lake Erie - Leamington to Pelee Is. to Put-In Bay), we did run jacklines on a Sandpiper - 2 runs of webbing from the bow to stern cleats.

Thinking about it more, I feel the main aim is to keep you ON the boat... so when your boat's small, the jackline down the centerline seems the most logical, so that there's almost no way to go overboard if you're clipped on.

For our Sandpiper I'm contemplating some arrangement of one fixed clip-on point near the companionway for when in the cockpit, and a short jackline from the mast to the forward deck horn. With two tethers, you could connect to the jackline while the cockpit tether is still on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED View Post
Any thoughts, & or testing on using something like Regatta Braid, or 3-strand anchor line for tethers. Since both have some stretch to them, & are easy to splice.
I confess that my tether is homemade; I bought the good Wichard clips and used some 7/16" line. I could make it custom length, and if it's short enough to keep me on deck, it will not be subjected to the same extreme shock-loads of falling off of a larger boat with more play in their jackline/tether combo.
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Old 22-04-2017, 10:17   #10
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Re: Jacklines et al for Tanzer 22

To the OP your setup sounds good. I would suggest testing it by trying to jump off the boat when clipped in. Literally --- If your butt can get over the gunwale, then the system needs to be changed. Once your butt is over the side, the majority of your mass is off the boat and getting back on is harder. There is some good stuff written by some single handlers that is great.

Regarding clips for tethers. I have a West Marine double with Kong clips and a Wilchard with two of their clips. I HATE the Wilchard!

Kong clips are the ones you will see on OSHA compliant confined space rigs. They are easy to operate with one hand and very durable. Wilchards are durable, but not easy to operate with one hand. If it is. It easy to operate, you will be tempted not to use it.

While many B&M about west marine their tethers have great clips and stress indicators to show if they have been shock loaded- and should be replaced. Mine are starting to show wear and will be replaced with the same design.
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Old 22-04-2017, 10:45   #11
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Re: Jacklines et al for Tanzer 22

To be blunt, most of the snap hooks out there are crap, including the majority of those approved by the various sailing governening, & "safety" bodies. They're either too easy to accidentally trip, or the reverse. They can't be release under load if needed.

Specificially, there are aluminum ones that fall prey to corrosion quite quickly. Stainless "safety hooks" which can be deformed with one hand, enough so that the gates are permanently bent to the side. This, in a manner which greatly replicates the loads which they'll see in a tethered MOB situation, or even if the crew doesn't actually go over the side.
And of course the utter crap situation of tethers which have zero release mechanisim where they attach to the harness itself, or they have hardware which cannot be released under load, & are thus equally useless. Specifically if one needs to cut away if they're in a situation where they're tethered to the boat, & said state of affairs is drowning them.

My DIY tethers have a Heavy Wichard shackle at the chest attachment point, which can be released under load, simply by puling on a stout lanyard that's spliced onto the shackle's release mechanisim. And on the ends which clip to the jacklines or deck fasteners, each leg of the tether has a stainless, auto-locking, screw gate carabiner. So that there's no chance of an accidental release.
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Old 22-04-2017, 10:46   #12
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Re: Jacklines et al for Tanzer 22

Quote:
Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED View Post
Any thoughts, & or testing on using something like Regatta Braid, or 3-strand anchor line for tethers. Since both have some stretch to them, & are easy to splice.
Back in the day, three strand nylon was the typical tether. It is elastic and easy to splice and relatively inexpensive. About 3/8" or 1/2" was typical. It works just fine.

Regatta is a bit less elastic and a bit more expensive, so probably a bit less desirable.

What your preference is greatly depends on how important you rate and trade-off several different factors.

For me the single most important factor is a tether design I am actually going to carry with me, so I have it on me when I might want to use it. If I do not have it with me I would usually be tempted to go ahead with the job without using one. So light and low bulk are key criteria for me, and dyneema just wins on those factors. I make ones that stow in my pocket so easily I (almost) always have them on me. . . . 'theory' is nice, but you need a system that you will actually really use for it to do any good.

I personally have never had, nor met anyone who has had, the 'fall shock load' problem . . . .so I personally put 'easy of carry' way above elasticity. But I can certainly understand how others might make a different decision.
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Old 25-04-2017, 12:38   #13
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Re: Jacklines et al for Tanzer 22

Hello all:

Thank you Evans for your revisions and expansion of your thinking since circa 2013 paper. Much appreciated.

Sorry I have been MIA from my thread. It has not been raining for a few days and afternoon temps up to low teens, so out working on the boat.

Quote:
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To the OP your setup sounds good. I would suggest testing it by trying to jump off the boat when clipped in. Literally --- If your butt can get over the gunwale, then the system needs to be changed.
This is a tough test. Given that the tether is attached mid torso and my height of 6'4", and the maximum beam of just under 8 feet, it leads to a maximum tether length of under 4 feet assuming I have a center line jackline, which I likely won't. Making other reasonably assumptions like being at the bow, quickly leads to a 2 foot or shorter tether.

So I really come to a fork in the road here. Either my small boat is no different from a larger boat and I will be unable to get back on board. This leads inevitably to ~ 2 foot tethers and hands and knees only. Or given my size and the size of the boat, I will be able to scramble back on board, in which case a 4-1/2 foot tether will allow me to stand and work in a radius of about 3 feet, at various workstations. Any insight anyone?

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Old 25-04-2017, 21:47   #14
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Re: Jacklines et al for Tanzer 22

Boulter, I don't know what's best for you. If it's easy for you to haul yourself back aboard under normal circumstances, then maybe go for the less safe option. A shot of adrenalin at night will make you stronger, too. I wouldn't be happy with it, but people vary in their risk tolerance. If it's really important to you to avoid the overboard risk, then hands and knees and short tether will keep you safe. Honestly, if there's any way at all to do it centerline, imho, that would be way better, you'll have to be creative, and create good backing plates, too.

Ann
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Old 26-04-2017, 05:49   #15
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Re: Jacklines et al for Tanzer 22

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boulter View Post
Hello all:



This is a tough test. Given that the tether is attached mid torso and my height of 6'4", and the maximum beam of just under 8 feet, it leads to a maximum tether length of under 4 feet assuming I have a center line jackline, which I likely won't. Making other reasonably assumptions like being at the bow, quickly leads to a 2 foot or shorter tether.



Boulter


Boulter


When I post I do so from actual experience. On my Tartan 33 the jackline runs from the starboard bow clear to the port cabin top winch. Where it passes the mast I connect the jackline to the mast fitting that holds the vang.
This prevents sagging under load.


Using a West Marine two leg tether and a WM harness I am able to work safely. Using this in blue water my 6'2"+ and 220 lbs felt safe and fairly comfortable. When i fully tension the jackline and stand by an attachment point I do have to bend my knees. But when working at the mast, one can reattach to the whisker pole attachment eye on the mast.

Suggest you do a practical application versus "an office review".

Also PS has a good discussion of jacklines in the current issue.

All the best
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