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Old 30-11-2015, 21:09   #46
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Re: Jacklines and fall protection devices?

So tell Dear People, after your fall, howsoever far, do you get back on deck, possibly with an incapacitating injury? Honestly would someone explain how to get away from the frighteningly near rushing waves, esp sailing solo. Which of you can haul an injured 95kg injured human aboard. Would you haul a car crash victim out onto the road??
I really don't know what I'm missing here but I believe in preventing that terrible fall overboard.
For those who dont know, the Tasman Sea has a fearsome reputation so when I go to the sharp end ONLY 25mm s/steel, in EACH hand does it for me.
I really can't believe I have no similar thinkers in this place.
I'm suggesting we prevent the fall with solid rails.
Yes, harnesses, jackline......all good.
But the horse has bolted when looking at the boat from mid air. No???
If I've got it all wrong, please, would someone help save my life.
Cheers to all. blara3.
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Old 30-11-2015, 21:16   #47
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Re: Jacklines and fall protection devices?

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Originally Posted by brianlara 3 View Post
So tell Dear People, after your fall,...

For those who dont know, the Tasman Sea has a fearsome reputation so when I go to the sharp end ONLY 25mm s/steel, in EACH hand does it for me.
I really can't believe I have no similar thinkers in this place.
I'm suggesting we prevent the fall with solid rails...

Okay, a very good point. Life lines of wire or rope are traditional on a sailboat and may be lighter in weight for a racing yacht but for cruising boats why don't we all have solid rails?


S/V B'Shert
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Old 01-12-2015, 05:30   #48
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Re: Jacklines and fall protection devices?

Hi Brianlara:
My point exactly is that a tether should prevent you at all costs from going overboard. Which is why jacklines are unacceptable. It is of the first importance to stay on the boat at all times. Clip in short, clip in often, and hold on tight when moving around. I think solid rails are a great idea; better yet solid bulwarks (if the boat is big enough).
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Old 01-12-2015, 05:56   #49
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Re: Jacklines and fall protection devices?

Quote:
Originally Posted by brianlara 3 View Post
So tell Dear People, after your fall, howsoever far, do you get back on deck, possibly with an incapacitating injury? Honestly would someone explain how to get away from the frighteningly near rushing waves, esp sailing solo. Which of you can haul an injured 95kg injured human aboard. Would you haul a car crash victim out onto the road??
I really don't know what I'm missing here but I believe in preventing that terrible fall overboard.
For those who dont know, the Tasman Sea has a fearsome reputation so when I go to the sharp end ONLY 25mm s/steel, in EACH hand does it for me.
I really can't believe I have no similar thinkers in this place.
I'm suggesting we prevent the fall with solid rails.
Yes, harnesses, jackline......all good.
But the horse has bolted when looking at the boat from mid air. No???
If I've got it all wrong, please, would someone help save my life.
Cheers to all. blara3.

Mentally you have to be envision the toe rail as the entry point to hell. The idea is you never enter there.

That is why (once again) the jack line should run down the middle of the deck to the bow cleat. It should also be checked for tension every time you go on deck. On my 33' boat aft of the mast, the 6' tether will keep the bulk of my body mass inside the life lines.

Going forward of the mast, I use the short 3' tether. If I am working just forward of the mast, I am tethered to the jack line with the 3' tether and to the spin pole eye with the 6' tether. Some may consider this gutless, but I know as a single hander, I am staying on the boat. Should the roller furler or something else require my attention at the peak, I clip the 3' leg to the tether and the 6' to the bow rail or take a turn on the forestay and clip back to the harness. Doing this I have ridden the bow through knee high green water.

FWIW, if all you have is a steel life line in each hand you are buggered. Assuming you are not site seeing when you let go to work, all you have is one cold, slippery hand to keep you on the boat. I would really rethink that one...

Whatever you set-up on your boat, as a single hander if the bulk of your body mass goes over the toe rail, you are in God's hands! If you have a crew, do they have the strength and fortitude to come on deck and get you back onboard? If not, then rig like you are single handing.
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Old 01-12-2015, 05:56   #50
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Re: Jacklines and fall protection devices?

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Originally Posted by Benz View Post
My point exactly is that a tether should prevent you at all costs from going overboard. Which is why jacklines are unacceptable.
Doesn't that depend on the length of the lanyard and the position of the jackline?
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Old 01-12-2015, 06:08   #51
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Re: Jacklines and fall protection devices?

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Doesn't that depend on the length of the lanyard and the position of the jackline?
Well said! Multiple points just means multiple opportunities for failure or user error.

Also assumes user never checks or adjust jack line tension.
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Old 01-12-2015, 06:43   #52
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Re: Jacklines and fall protection devices?

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Originally Posted by Tayana42 View Post
Okay, a very good point. Life lines of wire or rope are traditional on a sailboat and may be lighter in weight for a racing yacht but for cruising boats why don't we all have solid rails?


S/V B'Shert
Well, you could injure yourself hitting the rail hard..............whereas with a cable or rope lifeline the shock is taken up by the lifeline
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Old 01-12-2015, 07:21   #53
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Re: Jacklines and fall protection devices?

Re being buggered needing two hands. With respect, not so. I choose to be 'gripped' to the boat when going forward/aft by using four limbs, steadily and determined to not fall. Despite being unable to swim because of two shreaded shoulders I'm never fearful, just seriously careful. WHEN i get there both hands are free because I have very solid rails to use as a brace. Imagine the bracing security of a solid pulpit from bow to stern. That's what I have made.
I have handled on headsail and staysails and the pick is dropped from the cockpit.
Can anyone imagine crossing Bass Strait in 24x9' boat and needing to be on deck? In that scenario my rails are complemented by my Wichard harness gear which, in my consciousness, is only a 5% back-up system no more than that.
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Old 01-12-2015, 07:26   #54
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Re: Jacklines and fall protection devices?

Furthermore, cracking a rib or two by getting tossed into solid rails is better that flying over them enroute to Davey Jones. And I just HATE broken ribs.
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Old 01-12-2015, 07:35   #55
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Re: Jacklines and fall protection devices?

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Originally Posted by brianlara 3 View Post
Furthermore, cracking a rib or two by getting tossed into solid rails is better that flying over them enroute to Davey Jones. And I just HATE broken ribs.
Broken ribs suck. (bike crash)

But I'm thinking two tethers one in the cockpit and one at the mast ought to do the trick along with my tied on "rope" lifelines.

The good thing about tied on is that the "rope" is usually at a new place on the stanchion and you can keep an eye out for chafe and wear etc.

I plan to actually hookup my tethers next year rather than leave them down below and I plan on retying my port lifeline also when I sail.

I leave it unhooked when at the dock and then sometimes don't remember to retie until I'm a few miles offshore.
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Old 01-12-2015, 07:45   #56
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Re: Jacklines and fall protection devices?

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Originally Posted by thinwater View Post
Yup, falling is not a great model. But we do need a model.

"Design to keep you on on the boat" would be my model

Based on a few Dyneema lifeline failures

Dyneema lifeline failures seem to be all (that I have seen) cut/chafe or improper installation - NOT loading failures.

Low stretch jacklines are not really new to the sport. We had wire jacklines as the standard for many many years. There were negligible failures (mostly very poor nicopress end loops) and zero (as far as I can find) shock loading injuries.

We also know that the sewn end loops on many webbing jacklines are in fact under the ISAF spec when actually tested. I just went thru an 'interesting' exercise - a CCA member had read my load testing page just after having a well known sail maker make him some custom jacklines. He send me some photos of the loops and asked if they were ok. I told him they were definitely not 'best practice' and that the sewing was a bit sloppy and that I was not sure they would meet the ISAF standard if actually tested but that they were probably ok. He sent my reply to the sail maker who got all angry, and said they used the best materials and a proven design and had been making them this way for years and never had one break (they have specifically been used on a lot of bermuda boats) and the jacklines would "most definitely far exceed the ISAF standard". I told the owner I did not want to debate opinions with the sail loft, but that if he wanted to send me the jacklines, I would break them and also make him a new set. We did that and the sail loft jacklines broke at about 3500lbs (eg below the ISAF standard). . . . .sorry for that short story, but the points are #1 that sewn loops are perhaps a greater vulnerability than low stretch shock loading, and #2 even at 75% of ISAF standards - these things really dont break in the real world, suggesting our load cases are either 'too high' or you might say ISAF have an adequate safety factor.





I've found 3 cases where they parted due to excessive impact force. In one case cutting over an edge seems to have been a factor, and in the other the stitching was probably substandard (I believe they tested the some part of the tether).

hmmm . . . I would not describe either of those as 'failure due to excessive force' (being cut and sewing failure) and I am going to guess that all of these were in fact with webbing tethers - so not due to low stretch shock loading. If the sewing one is the case from the hobart - yes, that was a tether with a seriously inadequate sewing job.

I have a catamaran

I sure that Cats have different optimal designs than monos (easier to get the system away from the edge) - and would also guess that your load cases are different (longer distance, different sharper motion, no 'knock down' case)

Overall, I believe that #1 staying on the boat should be our priority and that #2 conventional side deck jacklines/tethers (on a mono) are not a very good design solution to meet that need. and that #3 the sport has historically given short shrift to other more basic aspects of this problem - like the skill of moving safely and kneeling/siting when working and good non-skid and hand grips and toerail (and just for instance, the racers have progressively gotten the boat manufacturers and the rule writers to minimize toerails because they prioritize hiking out over safety).

..........
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Old 01-12-2015, 08:04   #57
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Re: Jacklines and fall protection devices?

thomm225. Hi.
When i was living in India and having a M/bike broken ribs were very common for me.
Re your tethers, you know I've carefully considered every suggestion in every thread and the isn't much, IMHO, that isn't meritable.
But next time I'm alone in the boonies again and conditions are so rough that my harness will get its fifth wearing in 6 years, a short and a long tether, hooked to forestay, baby stay, ringbolt at the mast base and ditto on the traveller above the companionway will give that 5% security that my head, hands and feet can't.
I just love my 25mm tube and fittings...bugger the weight and cost.
I'd bet London to a Brick, that any commentator, after seeing whit I've made, would be envious. I've seen a few boats oner the years with solid rails but none a tiny as the bucking bloody bronco I live on.
Dear Readers: this is my last promo of solid rails, promise (probably).
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Old 01-12-2015, 08:12   #58
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Re: Jacklines and fall protection devices?

^^ I have to say, I dont really seen any fundamental advantage (or disadvantage) of solid rails over correctly designed and installed wire or dyneema - those will be tight and easily strong enough - you can lean on them and hold onto them if you want - although best practice is not to.

I do see a significant advantage to HIGHER life lines/rails - be they solid or wire/dyneema.
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Old 01-12-2015, 08:35   #59
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Re: Jacklines and fall protection devices?

Estarzinger, the distance from my deck to the top of the rail is 650mm. Thus, my knee cap is well below the rail.
Because the pulpit, stanchions and stern rail are connected by tubing which neither stretches nor compresses there is virtually no movement of any component. I love Dyneema but it would never be as solid as the cage which encircles my boat. The length of a vessel usually determines the number of stanchions yes? Well, on my little boat I can litterally stand on the rails. And on a boat with ten stanchions on each side you'd be able to ditto if they were solid. But for me, standing (worst case scenario) on Dyneema or wire is unthinkable. My tubular top rail links my bow and stern rails into a very stiff cage and i think that any flexible link would allow stanchions to move independently, surely.?
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Old 01-12-2015, 08:39   #60
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Re: Jacklines and fall protection devices?

2:35 am in Sydney, goin' back to bed !!
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